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Chapter 17: Combat

Destined-To-Reign
(@destined-to-reign)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. Lewis used the idea of single combat in Prince Caspian in 1949, and then again in Till We Have Faces in 1956. Obviously it was a concept that intrigued him. What is significant about the ruler of a people offering to fight on their behalf? What does this tell us about Orual?

2. Orual recognises that the Fox's ploy to keep her from battling Argan is similar to her ploy to get Psyche to betray her husband, and yet Orual goes on with what she wants where Psyche surrendered her will. What does this action show us about Orual? Is she selfish, strong-willed, or both?

3. What do you think of Orual's plan to "queen it with the best of them"? Why is she doing this?

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Topic starter Posted : August 5, 2010 3:43 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

1. Lewis used the idea of single combat in Prince Caspian in 1949, and then again in Till We Have Faces in 1956. Obviously it was a concept that intrigued him. What is significant about the ruler of a people offering to fight on their behalf? What does this tell us about Orual?

When the ruler offers him/herself to fight in single combat it appears to the people that the ruler loves them so much that they love their people and want to spare blood shed. From the ruler's point of view it seems to be more of a strategic / political movement. Neither Miraz or Argan can refuse the challenge without looking like a coward to his people. Orual wants to do this get herself out of a difficult situation. Argan's army is stronger than hers so she can't not hope to win a fight. However, she would much rather have Trunia on the throne than Argan. The only way that she has a hope of saving him is to fight the combat. If she does it herself he has to accept or be ridiculed by his people. It also will help Orual secure the throne if she wins. I don't think Orual is offering to do this out of any love of her people. It seems more political to her. I think it shows that she is shrewd and brave.

I'll answer the other questions another time.

Edit: I'm back. Did you miss me? ;))

2. Orual recognises that the Fox's ploy to keep her from battling Argan is similar to her ploy to get Psyche to betray her husband, and yet Orual goes on with what she wants where Psyche surrendered her will. What does this action show us about Orual? Is she selfish, strong-willed, or both?

I think she is both. Her treatment of Psyche has shown her to be selfish. Her love is a very selfish love. She does not seem to love for the sake of loving but for what she can get out of it. I don't think it necessarily started out that way. I think at first she loved the Fox because of who he was and how he treated her but (chapter 18 spoiler)
I have more to say on that one but I have to go help with dinner. I'll be back again. Edit 2: I'm back again. Orual's kind of selfishness often manifests itself in the way she wants other people to react to her. It is non-selfish selfishness, if that makes any sense. She doesn't really care what happens to her as long as she has done some great deed or has someone's love.

3. What do you think of Orual's plan to "queen it with the best of them"? Why is she doing this?

I'm not sure what I think of her plan. It really depends on what she means by the "best of them." When I think of good rulers, I think more along the lines of the kind of ruler Aslan describes in the Magician's Nephew, but I would guess that kings and queens are judged differently in Orual's setting. To be honest, I think Pysche would make a much better queen than Orual. (oops I'm getting off topic. ). If she is going to be the Queen, in makes sense that she would put all she has to it. It is important to do any job the best one can. I think there are a lot of different reasons why she is doing this. She mentions some of them herself: pride and as a distraction. I think she likes the power and she wants power.

This time I've finished the post. ;))


NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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Posted : August 5, 2010 9:54 am
DiGoRyKiRkE
(@digorykirke)
The Logical Ornithological Mod Moderator

Pysche would make a much better queen than Orual. (oops I'm getting off topic. ).

Not at all my dear! This is a very interesting, and very valid point.

What about "post-sacrifice" Psyche seems like she would make a better queen than Orual? Because I'm not sure that she would.

Queens are supposed to be leaders, but Psyche is more of a follower. A true leader wouldn't have given in to Orual's forceful threat in order to betray her husband (let alone the gods). I think that Psyche has part of the attributes that are needed to be queen. She has compassion for the downtrodden, love for the sick, etc. . . but I'm not sure that she'd make a good queen.

Orual, on the other hand, wouldn't make a good queen either (at least. . .as she is ;) ). She's stubborn, and has ingrained in her mind a certain way of how the world is supposed to work. When things stray from that worldview, she doesn't know what to do. This is evidenced by the way she handles herself during the days before Psyche's sacrifice. Orual is certainly strong enough to be queen, but she seems so much like her father that I'm not sure she'd be seen any differently. A real queen wouldn't have to "win the favour of the people," by fighting for them; a real queen could charm her people by her views, her justice, her compassion, etc...

Perhaps a combination of Psyche and Orual would make for the ideal queen?

A very interesting point, Pattertwig's Pal.

Member of Ye Olde NarniaWeb

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Posted : August 6, 2010 9:28 am
Lady Haleth
(@lady-haleth)
NarniaWeb Junkie

1. I think the significance lies in one person (the ruler) risking themselves for the sake of their people. One person risking their life so that their people will not have to fight a hopeless fight. I was really impressed by Orual's cleverness in setting up this challenge, though. I think it shows that she does have intelligence, and if she keeps on that way she could be a good ruler.
2. Orual seems to be more stubborn than Psyche, more determined to have her way. She also seems to be more selfish. Psyche was in some ways constrained to what she did by Orual's threats. But if she had been selfish she wouldn't have cared about them nearly as much.
3. I'm not sure. She just seems to be burying herself in her work, so to speak. I think she means something like being the greatest queen, and working so hard to be the greatest queen she forgets her her guilt and sorrow.

The glory of God is man fully alive--St. Iraneus
Salvation is a fire in the midnight of the soul-Switchfoot

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Posted : August 7, 2010 2:33 am
Pattertwigs Pal
(@twigs)
Member Moderator

What about "post-sacrifice" Psyche seems like she would make a better queen than Orual? Because I'm not sure that she would.

Queens are supposed to be leaders, but Psyche is more of a follower. A true leader wouldn't have given in to Orual's forceful threat in order to betray her husband (let alone the gods). I think that Psyche has part of the attributes that are needed to be queen. She has compassion for the downtrodden, love for the sick, etc. . . but I'm not sure that she'd make a good queen.

I hadn't thought of it in that way. Psyche was put into a very difficult position by Orual. I don't think she would have given in to anyone but Orual and I don't think she would have given in if Orual hadn't threaten to kill herself. No leader is going to get it right all of the time. Psyche showed leadership when she agreed to lay her hands on the sick (an act that Orual did not want her to do). When Fox and her nurse were sick, she took the initiative to go to them.

The reasons I was thinking that Psyche would make a good queen are:
[list=1]

  • She has the correct respect for the gods. She doesn't despise them like Orual and trusts that if she is sacrificed she will go to a better place. (I know that she did disobey the god on the mountain but I was thinking more about her "pre-sacrifice" feelings and beliefs than what she did "post-sacrifice").[/*2rro593r]
  • She was a student of the Fox but also knows that he didn't have all the answers (Thus, she has the same background Orual does).[/*2rro593r]
  • She has understands that as part of the royal family she has an obligation to the people. She sees the people as being in their care rather than being troublesome and only useful insomuch as they help keep the royal family in power. She is willing to serve the people instead of having them serve her.[/*2rro593r]
  • She can be stubborn when she wants to be and will fight for what she believes is right. Although with this stubbornness comes a bit of a temper, she is better able to control her temper than Orual or the King.[/*2rro593r][/list2rro593r]
  • Orual, on the other hand, wouldn't make a good queen either (at least. . .as she is ;) ). ... Orual is certainly strong enough to be queen, but she seems so much like her father that I'm not sure she'd be seen any differently.

    This is a point I've been thinking a lot about. Orual repeatedly condemns her father but is she really much different? I don't think she is. She has his pride and although her selfishness is more outward directed (see my answer to number 2 above), she is very selfish too. She has a temper and has trouble controlling it. The way she wanted revenge on the people who mistreated Psyche when she went to town and the punishment she threatened Redival with seem very much in line with what the king would do. I think she is smarter than her father and a better politician i.e. she knows how to play the game and can think strategically. The King is not a good politician. Orual writes:

    This very day the Fox had taught [the King] to drive a better garden with the King of Phars than he would ever have thought of for himself. The Fox was a true Greek: where my father could give only a Yes or a No to some neighbouring king or dangerous noble, he could pare the Yes to the very quick and sweeten the No till it went down like wine.

    Orual on the other hand is able to come up with the plan of single combat. I think as a ruler she will be more dangerous than the King. In the sense that she will be able to do more with the power she has.

    Perhaps a combination of Psyche and Orual would make for the ideal queen?

    Maybe. Psyche does seem a bit naive but Orual is too hard and cynical. If I were given a choice for queen, I would chose Psyche over Orual and either one of them over Redival.


    NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King

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    Posted : August 8, 2010 10:18 am
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