(Warning: This thread will contain spoilers for both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings)
Perhaps you wonder why Gandalf would make the effort to help the Dwarves in their struggle with the Dragon?
Tolkien doesn't say much about it in The Hobbit, but later he writes about it in other books. In The Lord of the Rings (LotR) he tells about it in Appendix A (in the history of the Dwarves), ending it with referring to something that "Gandalf said afterwards to Frodo and Gimli, when they dwelt together for a time in Minas Tirith" - i.e. after the main events of LotR. There Gandalf talks about the connection between the two tales.
The conversation in Minas Tirith between Gandalf and the other members of the Company is expanded in Unfinished Tales, part III, The Quest of Erebor. It's worth reading the whole chapter, but it does include a lot of editorial comments about different text versions.
Of course, this is very spoiler heavy, both for The Hobbit and for LotR!
Where to find it:
The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, in section III: DURIN'S FOLK:
From the paragraph starting with "But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin", until the paragraph ending with "A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth".
I see three main versions of the narrative in Unfinished Tales, to be found as follows:
Unfinished Tales, part III, The Quest of Erebor
From the paragraph starting with "He would say no more that day", until the the first set of Notes.
Unfinished Tales, part III, The Quest of Erebor
From the paragraph starting with "So Thorin Oakenshield became the Heir of Durin", until the paragraph ending with "only to those who are there shall I speak openly".
Unfinished Tales, part III, The Quest of Erebor
From the paragraph starting with "At last I made up my mind, and I went back to Thorin", until the paragraph ending with "If Thorin had left Bag End before I could see him alone, my plan would have been ruined".
Some questions:
1.
'"What!' cried Glóin. 'One of those simpletons down in the Shire? What use on earth, or under it, could he possibly be? Let him smell as he may, he would never dare to come within smelling distance of the nakedest dragonet new from the shell!'
'"Now, now!' I said, 'that is quite unfair. You do not know much about the Shire-folk, Glóin. I suppose you think them simple, because they are generous and do not haggle; and think them timid because you never sell them any weapons. You are mistaken. Anyway, there is one that I have my eye on as a companion for you, Thorin. He is neat-handed and clever, though shrewd, and far from rash. And I think he has courage. Great courage, I guess, according to the way of his people. They are, you might say, "brave at a pinch." You have to put these Hobbits in a tight place before you find out what is in them.'
"'The test cannot be made,' Thorin answered. 'As far as I have observed, they do all that they can to avoid tight places.'
"'Quite true,' I said. 'They are a very sensible people. But this Hobbit is rather unusual. I think he could be persuaded to go into a tight place. I believe that in his heart he really desires to – to have, as he would put it, an adventure.'
'"Not at my expense!' said Thorin, rising and striding about angrily. 'This is not advice, it is foolery! I fail to see what any Hobbit good or bad, could do that would repay me for a day's keep, even if he could be persuaded to start.'"
Does this put the introduction of the Dwarves in The Unexpected Party in a different light? Do you think Tolkien would have written the chapter differently if he had thought of this before he started it?
2.
'"Listen to me, Durin's Folk!' I cried. 'If you persuade this Hobbit to join you, you will succeed. If you do not, you will fail. If you refuse even to try, then I have finished with you. You will get no more advice or help from me until the Shadow falls on you!'
"Thorin turned and looked at me in astonishment, as well he might. 'Strong words!' he said. 'Very well, I will come. Some foresight is on you, if you are not merely crazed.' "
Do you think this is foresight on Gandalf's part? Is it crucial to the Dwarves' quest that Bilbo joins them?
3. Do you think the meeting between Gandalf and Thorin Oakenshield would be a good introduction to the movie? Do you think it will be included?
Discuss these questions - and other questions that may arise when you read about the meeting!
(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)
Topic starter
Posted : September 22, 2012 9:19 am
1. Does this put the introduction of the Dwarves in The Unexpected Party in a different light? Do you think Tolkien would have written the chapter differently if he had thought of this before he started it?
It adds to what we know about Thorin. We know from The Hobbit that Thorin wasn't particularly pleased about the situation. Now we know just how unpleased he was. Gloin also expressed concerns about Bilbo. I could go either way. He might have had the dwarves be more quarrelsome and angry at Gandalf and show more displeasure at Bilbo. Or he might have left it the way it was because in a situation like that, it would be very likely that Bilbo would not have picked up on all of the undercurrents.
2. Do you think this is foresight on Gandalf's part? Is it crucial to the Dwarves' quest that Bilbo joins them? I think it is foresight on Gandalf's part. I don't think he would have taken so much trouble about getting Bilbo to go. I think it is crucial. I doubt the dwarves would have made it without Bilbo.
3. Do you think the meeting between Gandalf and Thorin Oakenshield would be a good introduction to the movie? Do you think it will be included?
I would like very much to see it but I think I'd rather have the movie open in the Shire with Bilbo and Gandalf. I think it will be more dramatic if we are first introduced to the dwarves when they show up at Bilbo's door. Well, they do need to stretch the Hobbit into three movies so they might include it. I'm thinking they won't though. They are probably looking more for action to add. They could, however, very easily work in Gandalf's conversation with Thorin at Bag End.
I find it very interesting that Bilbo had already lost some of his respectability before Gandalf showed. I find it hard to believe based on the way he behaved in the Hobbit. Although since that was from his point of view, he might not have seen things that way / want to admit it.
NW sister to Movie Aristotle & daughter of the King
Posted : September 29, 2012 5:39 am
I certainly think this explains the Dwarves' reluctance to take Bilbo with them. I find Gloin's comments amusing because Gimli has such a love for the Hobbits in The Lord of the Rings (though he often expresses it in a rough manner). I suppose that comes of Gloin's adventures with Bilbo and the high respect the whole company has for him before the end.
Gandalf was most definitely employing foresight, though I doubt he saw everything that came. It's possible he had visited Elrond and/or Galadriel before this point and had seen something, but I think it's more likely that Gandalf, being the perceptive wizard that he is, knows that Hobbits are important to the working of the world, whether anyone else realizes this or not.
I would like to see it, but I think it should be used as part of Thorin's flashbacks or possibly as the prologue for the first film (though I'm not certain I want a prologue). I think the film's true opening (whether they use a prologue or not) should be with Bilbo sitting on his porch as Gandalf approaches. "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit..."
"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you..."
Inexhaustible Inspiration
6689 posts from forum 1.0
Posted : October 2, 2012 5:22 am
Does this put the introduction of the Dwarves in The Unexpected Party in a different light? Do you think Tolkien would have written the chapter differently if he had thought of this before he started it?
I definitely think it makes it a lot more realistic, according to the way dwarves are, and what we learn about Middle Earth later. In The Hobbit, the story has a more whimsical air to it, because we see things through the eyes of Bilbo. I do think Tolkien would have written it that way if he had thought of it. His view of the world in which it took place changed much over time. So much so that he even tried re-writing The Hobbit entirely once, though that didn't pan out. So yes, I do believe he would have put it in.
Do you think this is foresight on Gandalf's part? Is it crucial to the Dwarves' quest that Bilbo joins them?
Bilbo's presence shows itself to be vital as we read and continue to Yes, I do think it's foresight on Gandalf's part; and I also think he's sensing the pride within Thorin that
3. Do you think the meeting between Gandalf and Thorin Oakenshield would be a good introduction to the movie? Do you think it will be included?
I really, really wanted it to be included in the movie. But I had my doubts since I wasn't sure whether or not the studio had obtained the rights to do so.
~Riella 
Posted : June 30, 2013 7:19 pm
3. Do you think the meeting between Gandalf and Thorin Oakenshield would be a good introduction to the movie? Do you think it will be included?
I really, really wanted it to be included in the movie. But I had my doubts since I wasn't sure whether or not the studio had obtained the rights to do so.
That's a good point - I think they only have the rights to use anything that is in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, including what can be found in the Appendices of LotR.
So the meeting as it's recorded in Durin's Folk could be used, but not the details from Unfinished Tales.
I would also like to see it. But shastastwin may be right that it would be better as a flashback.
(avi artwork by Henning Janssen)
Topic starter
Posted : June 30, 2013 10:56 pm
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