1. I think he means that no matter how many times you try to be better, or fix your mistakes, there's no way to get rid of it altogether. "For we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God"-Romans 3:23. We can't earn salvation ourselves, since we fail every time. Eustace tries hard to get rid of his sin, but in the end, he only finds another one. We keep on sinning, and because of it, every skin we try to take off makes no difference.

Only someone whose stronger than us can take them all off himself; someone who has experienced sin himself and was willing to come on cross and die for everyone who was held back by it. Only God can come and take away the crimson stain and wash us white as snow. At the same time, you have to allow him to do it; if Eustace hadn't agreed with Aslan's help, he'd still be failing at taking his skin off. We can let pride hold us back and try to earn our way into heaven, but we'll never make it there without the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And will it be painful to take all the disobedience and rebellion? Eustace found that that out, but he said it was a "good pain," and one that'd leave him move refreshed than anything else had ever been.

2. Like I said, we could try forever to get rid of all the shameful and regretful things we've done ourselves, but you can never escape the sea of sin that you're drowning in alone. We have the ability to call out on our savior, who is the only lifesaver that actually saves you eternally from what you've done. Our only hope is to admit we can't shed our skins ourselves, and we need help. I assure you, God is the only one who can have the ability to save his people from themselves, and he'll wait for even the most rotten of people to see that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light.

3. When I realize something I've done wrong, and very wrong, I sometimes cry my eyes out and beg for the Lord's forgiveness. Sometimes, the pain is unbearable, but when it starts fading away, I feel so alive and cherished by the One who loves me the most. I never had a powerful conversion like Eustace, but I know in the process of something in your heart changing(and for the better), it's very mighty and painful, but at the same time, you feel relieved, as if a weight has been carried off your shoulders. Eustace must've been feeling this at a great extent, but as he tells Edmund, it's a "good pain," and he was happy to finally get rid of it all.

4.I like how Devon Brown points out how significant it is that Edmund couldn't reconize Eustace. That's a great example that you're not the same person that you were before when you let Jesus change your heart.

1. What do you think Lewis is saying through Eustace’s repeated attempts to shed his dragon skin? I think he's saying that no matter how hard we try to change ourselves, we can't do it alone. No human, infact I believe no mortal being in the universe, is perfect, we need God's help in order to change. And in order to get God's help we have to be willing to admit that we need it, that we aren't perfect, and that we are sinners

2. What do you think about our own ability to change?
Eustace tells Edmund that after he agreed to allow Aslan to remove his dragon skin: “The very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I’ve ever felt.” It's hard to change, especially when trying to change things for the better. A lot of times the worser/ evil path seems easier, or more fun, so we will tend to flock toward those. I think it also has to do partially with the fact that old habits are hard to break, especially when it comes to my life. I'm a horrible procrastinator, and extremely disorganized, but I'm starting to get better. However there is no way possible that I could do it without God's help it's hard enough as it is. And I don't think any of us can change without God's help.

3. What do you think Lewis is saying about the relationship between pain and real transformation? (see above)

PS- glumPuddle I liked your answer to number one, I hadn't really thought of it in that way before.

1. What do you think Lewis is saying through Eustace’s repeated attempts to shed his dragon skin?

I think he is saying that Eustace can't change himself or at least not completely. Eustace didn't know how many skins he had / how deep he had to go but Aslan did.

2. What do you think about our own ability to change?
Eustace tells Edmund that after he agreed to allow Aslan to remove his dragon skin: “The very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I’ve ever felt.”

We can't do it ourselves. Sure we can change small things or we can temporarily fix things but for large changes we need help. I remember reading about someone (I think it was Ben Franklin) who tried to improve himself by working on one aspect at a time and keeping notes on it. Then he would move on to the next aspect to change and would find he was slipping back into his old habits on the previous change. Our own ability to change is limited.

3. What do you think Lewis is saying about the relationship between pain and real transformation?

This makes me think of the saying "No pain, no gain." Lewis seems to couple the idea of pain or suffering with transformation on a few occasions. Edmund had to suffer at the hand of the Witch, Eustace had to have his skin ripped from him, in Till We Have Faces , and I think there is a reference to something similar in the Great Divorce. People aren't likely to want to change if they are happy and content. Pain serves as a wake up call and also makes the change more meaningful. It adds something else to be overcome and can serve as a reminder not to go back. I wonder if at Deathwater Eustace was thinking about his dragoning / undragoning. He didn't seem to be the least bit interested in the gold or at least he was silent on the matter.

1. What do you think Lewis is saying through Eustace’s repeated attempts to shed his dragon skin?

Eustace’s problem is not his skin, but his pain. As a dragon, he has, for the first time in his life, felt true friendship, even that of an aggressive dragon’s natural prey – a mouse! Eustace is an animal with his front leg trapped in a man-made object: the golden armband, but in order to get that painful thing off of his leg, he must first get rid of all his old skin, at Aslan’s command. He cannot get rid of the skin without Aslan doing it for him – Aslan not only tells him he must remove his old skin, but the only way in which he can do so is by allowing Aslan to do it for him. This is comparable to Gandalf’s freeing Theoden from Saruman’s spell in The Two Towers. Theoden must give himself over to Gandalf; Eustace must give himself completely over to Aslan. The bottom line is that Lewis, who himself at age thirty, completely surrendered to Jesus, believes in complete and total trust in God in order to perform God’s bidding and to fulfill God’s purpose in each of our lives.

2. What do you think about our own ability to change?
Eustace tells Edmund that after he agreed to allow Aslan to remove his dragon skin: “The very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I’ve ever felt.”

I remember my geology professor once telling my class that even rocks change. The silly looking green tangerines outside my window will someday be a luscious orange treat for beast and human. However, we allow certain changes, some for good, others for bad. In completely giving himself over to Aslan, Eustace allowed a pain more fierce and intense than the pain in his front leg to occur. What Aslan did to Eustace was disgusting because the poor dragon wound up in only his veins, muscles, and organs – he was probably a horror to behold, and he had to subject to more unbearable pain at the Lion’s sharp teeth when Aslan, to whom Lewis did not give hands like those even of Reepicheep, picks him up and throws him into the water. It is similar to both a rebirth and a baptism.

3. What do you think Lewis is saying about the relationship between pain and real transformation?

I do not think Lewis is saying anything about the relationship between pain and real transformation, but I do believe he is saying quite a lot about the correlation between trust and real transformation. When he meets Aslan, Eustace is already in pain from the tight golden arm band on his front leg. He is transformed into a strong handsome young man only because he has put his complete trust in Aslan, even to the extent of suffering excruciating pain – and, I believe, death. People and animals die from being clawed and mauled by lions – that is how Jadis dies in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. Eustace puts his complete trust in Aslan, just as Edmund and Caspian have done in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and Prince Caspian respectively. The whole issue is that of trust in Aslan, which is necessary for the transformation of characters in the Narnian series, even if it means suffering excruciating pain in the process.

4. Do you have any other thoughts on this passage?

I have plenty of other thoughts on this passage, but the one that stands out the most in my mind are thoughts not of Eustace, but of Edmund. The whole reason why Edmund is on the island in the first place is to help find a Narnian lord. He sees a stranger whom he believes to be a complete stranger: an island native. His mind progresses to thinking the stranger is his friend and colleague Caspian. Edmund, too, is a Narnian King. Caspian is the closest person Edmund has to a complete peer, as Caspian and Edmund not only share kingship, but they also share being subject to Peter, High King of Narnia – Edmund’s brother. Finally, the stranger calls Edmund by name! How could this stranger know Edmund’s name, and adds “Don’t you know me - . . . it’s me – Eustace.” Edmund is Eustace’s own biological cousin. He is a stranger, and a very strange stranger at that because Aslan has transfigured him so intensely that his own biological cousin does not recognize him! I believe that once we allow God to transform us, not only do we change, but so do our relationships between ourselves and our families, friends, and acquaintances change.

1. What do you think Lewis is saying through Eustace’s repeated attempts to shed his dragon skin?

It could mean one of two things (or both). It could symbolize Eustace's stubborn nature -- him wanting to do it himself, instead of letting Aslan do it as he's supposed to. Or (and this I find much more likely), he thinks he's supposed to do it himself, and doesn't yet realize that he can't.

2. What do you think about our own ability to change?

I know that there isn't much we can do ourselves -- despite what a lot of people (even pastors) have told me. Growing up, I always heard sermons about how we have to do everything, and not expect God to do it for us. They made it sound like letting God do it was a form of laziness. I don't think those people understood what it means to be human. The heart is a deep place. So deep that you can't possibly reach the center, or even see what horrible things lie inside them. There can be a million sins in your heart that you don't even realize are there, let alone have the ability to change them.
I think the best thing we can do is pray. It is good to examine yourself to see what sins lie within yourself, do your best to change them if you can. But the most helpful thing by far is to pray that God will change you, get rid of the bad in you -- including the bad things you can't (or won't) see.

3. What do you think Lewis is saying about the relationship between pain and real transformation?

Well, real transformations can be painful. I've seen instances where they were. I've also seen many, many instances where it wasn't painful at all, but beauty without pain. It depends on the person, the situation, and how God deals with them. He deals with us all differently. There aren't any set rules that determines how God will handle us, or what it will feel like.

4. Do you have any other thoughts on this passage?

This is somewhat related to the last question, but when it comes to the part where Aslan pierces into Eustace directly into the heart, I don't think that was meant to be an illustration of pain (like the pulling away of the skin was), but an illustration of depth. The transformation went deep -- very deep, unlike the pulls Eustace made at his own skin. It's also pointing out that he pierced first into the heart, which is where transformations must always begin.

~Riella

1. Eustace is trying to undragon himself, but he can't. He knows what he is supposed to do, but when he tries to do it he realizes that he can't do it himself.

2. We can try to change, but we can't change entirely by ourselves. We can change something superficial, such as having the bad habit of not brushing our teeth or some such thing, but we cannot change our very nature. Only through God can our sin be removed. Only by grace through faith can we be undragoned.

3. Removing something that is deeply entrenched within us always hurts. Always.

Pain serves as a wake up call and also makes the change more meaningful. It adds something else to be overcome and can serve as a reminder not to go back.

I like this analogy, and your reference to Till We Have Faces. I hadn't made that connection before.

The fact of the matter is this:

Christ continually tells us that we can do nothing without Him. And we can not lean unto our own understanding without falling into the same pitfalls and ruts we seek to flee from. As Aslan was the only one who could free Eustace from his wordly "skin", so we are in need of complete submission in order to be free from the burden and condemnation of sin. It has nothing to do with baptism. Baptism doesnt save you. It is an act of God's admission into our lives. What saves us is the acceptence of Christ to ecome a new creature. That I beleive is what Lewis was saying with the dragon incident.

It is sad that they will not being using the examples of the tight band around eustace's arm, nor the throwing of it up onto the cliff whee it couldnt be reach from above or below. Nor will they show the lamb at the end. This is not speculation, this is fact that Michael Apted chose not to use these scenes. But he is an agnostic and that is that. Thank God we do not depend on Hollywood for knowledge and truth!

The band is on Eustace's arm (Look at the trailer ). No one had ever said that they're not using it that way. As for the lamb scene and them throwing off the cliff we haven't gotten word either way with those (not unless of course you're one of the lucky people who saw it already, in which case consider my previous comment null and void))

I like how you say that it has nothing to do with baptism. We have to believe in Jesus and submit to him and ask his forgiveness in order to be saved. Essentially if we try to save ourselves from ourselves we will inevitably fail, we need God's help. I think that's what Lewis was saying.

I agree, wolf. As for Eustace, that is a matter of interp for other people to indulge in, and I see your viewpoint. Regardless, only Aslan (Christ) can peel away our inquities.

It saddens me how people are getting into the hype of the action and characters of the upcoming movie, and not what is being left out of the real story. It is like many people dont care, they just wanna say how cute the characters are. In fact, a friend in San Clemente who is a gaffer pro had the previlege of viewing much of the movie, including the end (which I will not say in this forum!) only to say he told me he was saddened and disappointed, being a purest like me. But one could argue either way. I could say more but I dont want to ruin it for anyone.

I will say this...much of what you see in the newest international trailer is in the movie. If my buddy is right, then I may not even bother to spend the nine bucks to see the movie. sigh. VDT was my favorite book.

Haven't posted on this board in a couple of years. This is my most favourite part of the book. The reason I love the whole Eustace storyline is because I quite relate to it. I don't feel it will really be depicted as truthfully in the movie to the depth that I'd like it to be, judging from some of the trailers...but that's another thread.....

Questions for Discussion:

1. What do you think Lewis is saying through Eustace’s repeated attempts to shed his dragon skin?

That no matter how hard we try we can't change ourselves on our own in our own power. We need Christ to help us. The layer of callousness/sin-flesh nature have just pretty much accumulated upon us like an ugly thick skin and it's hard to come back to the new spiritual being/rebirth without Christ helping us.

2. What do you think about our own ability to change?
Eustace tells Edmund that after he agreed to allow Aslan to remove his dragon skin: “The very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I’ve ever felt.”

It's completely un-doable in our own strength, whatever pride/high intentions we have that we can 'undragon' ourselves.

3. What do you think Lewis is saying about the relationship between pain and real transformation?

No pain no gain? 'Character comes from adversity', Eustace is majorly tempered into the boy he's supposed to be in the end and he keeps on 'growing'.

4. Do you have any other thoughts on this passage?

I just love this whole passage. Lewis has described it completely right. I love this whole book.

Until this point in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, Eustace has tried to do everything himself. He struggled when Edmund tried to help him swim, and even resisted Lucy when she tried to help cure his sea sickness. When Aslan meets Eustace, he is at the end of his rope. He has admitted to himself that there is nothing he can do and is willing to give up and to not hold everyone back by going off and hiding. Eustace sees the pool and somehow knows that it can help heal him. After Aslan tells him that he needs to undress first, he tries to take his skin off. Although he technically is undressed from the first skin, he recognized that the ugly skin is still not good enough to enter the pool. Until the ugliness that holds him back from healing is gone, Eustace cannot enter the pool. When he lies down and lets Aslan take the skin off, he knows it will hurt. This is the point of the ultimate surrender of Eustace. No longer will he try to do things on his own because he recognizes that he can't. Aslan was the only way for him to be redeemed from himself. Although it hurts, the lion peels back layers of ugliness in order to show Eustace's true nature. Similarly, there is no way that people can be cleansed without the help of Jesus. People are naturally evil, like Eustace's dragon skin was naturally ugly. We can try to do things on our own, but we must surrender to God for a complete change. In the same way Eustace's skin was torn off him, there sometimes are things that we realized must be torn out of our own lives, bad habits, bad music, bad influences, etc. It hurts, but the thing that gets us through the change is the knowledge that we will be refined by the end.