By having Lucy kidnapped, she does not have the ability to be noble and make the choice to go. I think that it's important to Lucy's character that she choses to go.

Well, there was a certain amount of coercion in the book as well. The Duffles basically told them that they'd kill them all if Lucy didn't go into the house to read the spell. Still, I would prefer that to having her dragged off screaming or something like that.

I agree with Lady Galadriel. Jadis wasn't just defeated in battle in LWW, she was actually killed. The defeat of Satan is a spiritual one, he is still in physical existence. I made the point previously that Jadis continuing to come back after death is the same as if Satan could come back after his destruction in the events of Revelation. If Aslan has to keep physically destroying Jadis, then she is at least his equal in power.

Jadis doesn't = Satan. She equals evil - sin and death. Although, Satan was defeated at the cross, his influence is still felt. For this reason, I'm okay with the White Witch nightmare during the Dark Island, as long as Edmund just has horrible memories of her and continues to be tempted but if she actually manifests herself and is still alive, I will scream.

That is the question clive. Is it a good Narnia film? I don't know yet. I am very forgiving of changes. If they get the undragoning right which it seems they haven't then that might be enough for me. I am going to write again what i wrote elsewhere.

I think with the undragoning what is important in the book is that Aslan comes to Eustace. Eustace is laying there and he is just lost and doesn't know what is going to become of him and he looks up and sees Aslan coming towards him.

It is Aslan that makes the first move. Eustace is completely lost and Aslan tells him to follow him and that he has to undress and then when he tries to do it himself that Aslan must do it for him.

In a way i think the real transformation happens after Aslan undragons him. When Eustace is a dragon he realizes that he has not been doing the right thing. He has not been behaving in the right way. It is like because he becomes a dragon he realizes that he was wrong all along, but not until Aslan undragons him does he start transforming into a new person.

It is very tricky and i am not sure if i am making sense, but i think Aslan has to make the first move. The transformation happens because of the undragoning and i am not sure if they get that.

To have Eustace change before he is undragoned i think is not good enough for me. That suggests that he deserves the undragoning because he has somehow become worthy and i don't think that is right.

I also don't like the idea that Reep has somehow become worthy to enter into Aslan's country.

I was thinking about the undragoning the other day and Eustace talking about it after the fact. I was considering how that might mean the actual undragoning isn't seen in the film. When I thought about it, it kind of made sense.

In the second clip of the Fun-For-The-Whole-Family-Hour kit, they find Eustace's shoe and who knows what else. One might assume that Eustace had run off and left his shoe, but I presume he, being a dragon, could no longer fit his shoe... or the rest of his clothes. That may be the reason why we see Eustace in English clothes at the beginning and Narnia attire in the end. Perhaps in his dragon form he grew out of his other clothes, which would make perfect sense, so he needed to dawn Narnian clothes. In such a case, showing the actual undragoning wouldn't be at all appropriate, as it would be between the English and Narnian apparal.

As for Reep, I don't know how I feel about the "noble hearts" line. The Bible does say, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." God gives us a new, clean heart when we come to Him. I guess Heaven is only for those with noble hearts, and Reep does have a noble heart.

I suppose I have to hear the line in context. For the line to ring true, the credit needs to go to Aslan. It shouldn't be a matter of, "Well done, you can come because you've made your heart pure and noble". It should be more like, "Only those with noble hearts may enter and because of your faith in Me, I have made your heart noble". The question is not whether Reep is worthy to enter. I want to know why he is worthy to enter. If it's because he was a good little mouse then they missed the whole point. If it's because Aslan's grace has made him worthy then I think they nailed it.

I agree with Lady Galadriel. Jadis wasn't just defeated in battle in LWW, she was actually killed. The defeat of Satan is a spiritual one, he is still in physical existence. I made the point previously that Jadis continuing to come back after death is the same as if Satan could come back after his destruction in the events of Revelation. If Aslan has to keep physically destroying Jadis, then she is at least his equal in power.

I think the White Witch is getting a bit old, but I do see her as the ultimate evil. She seemed worse than Tash to me, even in the books, although Tash is the most evil. I don't have a problem with her representing evil and satan in the movies. I am among those who belive she's like satan still trying to win although he's defeated.

I certainly won't try to change your mind, but I wouldn't compare it to satan coming back after the events of Revelation and I don't think it diminishes Aslan's power. If she came into the New Narnia in LB I would say that was like satan coming back after the events in Revelation take place. You bet I would be extremely angry if that happened. But I don't think of her appearance in VDT as something like that

One problem I do have with her in VDT is that I can't think of a way, besides just a nightmare, that her presence would even make sense. If they can bring her up in a way that makes sense like in PC then I don't think I'll throw popcorn at her

I am in major denial mode about the ''unfathomable fate''. But I couldn't deny that I hated all the lines of Coriakin. What I am really worried about is the fact that RD and I quote says,''Violence is forbidden at Aslan's Table.'' I am really upset about this line. It's not violence that is forbidden but the stone knife that killed Aslan that they were forbidden to touch. What happened to the stone knife? Why aren't they using that here? Are they using it somewhere else?

I don't know if this has been talked about before, but in one of the spoilers, it states that Lucy has been kidnapped by invisible giants.....wait-giants? While I'm still not exactly sure, my theory is that in the middle of the night when they're sleeping on the beach, the duffers come and try to convince Lucy to come say the spell. Lucy knows that if she wakes the others, they won't let her go. So when Caspian and Edmund wake up on the beach and find Lucy missing and see all these huge foot prints(the duffers single foot) in the sand, they instantly think "she's been kidnapped by giants!" Then of course, that is played for laughs when Lucy says the invisible spell, and all the sudden these tiny harmless little dwarves appear, hopping all over the place with their one foot.

I don't know, maybe that doesn't make sense at all, but when I was listening to the podcast(episode 68) and glumPuddle briefly mentioned the "giants", this explanation popped into my head.

This has been brought up, it's mentioned both in this thread and also I opened up a poll about that specific scene- *Goes off to edit in the link*
* Edit*
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1921

I don't think that they'll actually be giants but the duffelpuds who've been mistaken for giants.

Also I really wish I had my book with me, but I know various people mentioned that Lucy was kidnapped/ threatened in the book. I think I remeber this, but can anyone give an exact quote?

Also I really wish I had my book with me, but I know various people mentioned that Lucy was kidnapped/ threatened in the book. I think I remeber this, but can anyone give an exact quote?

Here you are.....this is the Chief Duffer speaking to Caspian, Edmund, and Reepicheep about Lucy.

And that's why, gentlemen, if your little girl doesn't come up to scratch, it will be our painful duty to cut all your throats. Merely in the way of business, as you might say, and no offence, I hope."

My first weigh-in on the super spoilers!

I've read just about all the articles describing the screening, but I've been too busy to actually post my thoughts on the whole thing until now. Honestly, I feel flooded with the sheer volume of new tidbits we got from it all. Some of it I'm okay with, some I'm upset about, but most, I'm just plain confused!

Probably the biggest worry I have right now (and I don't know if this has been extensively discussed yet, I didn't read through the previous posts) is the White Witch's increasing similarity to LOTGK. It's already been pointed out that her eyes are luminous green in the trailer, and now in one of the reports (was it Cyclops's?) it was presumed that the Sea Serpent may actually be the Witch herself in a different form. Now, I don't know what backing that has or where the idea came from, but just from hearing that my mind rings with the haunting echoes of LOTGK's serpent transformation in SC. Are they trying to merge the two witches as one in this film? We did hear early on that the movie makers had "combined elements from other books" into VDT. If any of this is true, I find it highly unsettling and upsetting. However, I may be freaking out about nothing... there's really no evidence for that yet.

As for all the other spoilers... oh, where to even begin? I don't think I'll weigh in on anything else just yet, as I'm still gathering my thoughts.

A Narnian Ship, your theory makes *SO* much sense!! And it fits perfectly with the way movie writers write their script. It very well might be that way, and if so, it certainly does *NOT* take away or deviate from the book. It goes right along with it, it's just an added 'mistake' that Caspian and Edmund would make =) Neat! Thanks for sharing!

And thanks guys for respecting my views on the stuff and letting me be a *very* loyal narnia *book* fan and still be happy with what's going on in the VotDT movie

Alright, I've just listened to the latest podcast and it was really good. Now, a couple points have come to mind which I deem important.

First, there has been talk about the possibility of the White Witch being the Sea Serpent. This seems unlikely to me. In the report itself Michael Apted states that, and I quote, "the Dawn Treader group has found the seven swords, and the serpent and witch." Why would he say the serpent AND the Witch if they were one in the same? Also, if the serpent is the Witch, then how on earth could the crew and dragon Eustace defeat her? Aslan would be the only one who could do it... AGAIN! So, like I said, I don't think the serpent is the Witch.

Second, this next idea is kind of crazy and the only logical argument for it is that I am a desperate Narnia fan drawing at straws on how the White Witch coming back could possibly be a good thing. Well, it hit me that Coriakin is the one who tells them that the Witch is hiding in the Dark Island and that her power needs to be destroyed by finding the Seven Swords. In the book we are told that Coriakin was punished for a crime of some sort. Therefore, what if Coriakin wasn't exactly truthful? What if, being a bored magician out in the middle of nowhere, he gets his kicks by sending people out on a wild goose chase and then frightening them half to death. What if the Dark Island is Coriakin's idea of fun? I know! I know! It's kinda a crazy idea, but I think it's also plausible enough to be true: and if it is true, then I think it is a much better alternative then the return of THE Witch!

Lucy, Edmund, Caspian and Eustace meet a magician named Coriakin (played by Bille Brown), who tells them about Dark Island: "a place where evil lurks" and which "can make your darkest dreams come true." Coriakin says that the only way to stop the evil is to break its spell by finding seven swords. Coriakin then rolls out a map and tells them to follow the blue star to Ramandu’s Island, where the seven swords must be laid at Aslan’s feet. "Only then," Coriakin says, "the true magical power will be released. But beware, you’re all about to be tested. Until you lay down the seventh sword, evil has the upper hand. It will do everything in its power to tempt you. Don’t fall to temptation. To defeat the darkness out there, you must defeat the darkness inside yourself."

From this quote from the article, we see that Coriakin tells them about the seven swords, the "great evil", and the Dark Island. However, I would like to draw your attention to one line: "But beware, you’re all about to be tested." I look at this and go, "hmm, maybe he's trying to give them a hint." Just imagine if you will that the seven swords are not magical; there is no great evil in the Dark Island; Instead, the whole story is a test by Aslan. He tells Coriakin to tell them this story that the White Witch is back and the whole thing about the seven swords in order to test how well they actually believe he defeated her.

Ah, I can imagine it now, Caspian comes and lays the swords at the feet of Aslan saying, "here they are sir." Aslan looks a little sad: "Why did you not trust me? Why did you believe the story about the seven swords? Am I not the great king?" "But, Coriakin said...", stutters Caspian. Aslan growls a little and says, "who are you going to believe? Coriakin or myself?" Caspi... and you get the idea (I hope that the actual poetry in the movie will be better).

Well at any rate, that could be where they've gone with the whole seven swords thing and the White Witch. In that case, the White Witch would only be a part of the test as well and not truly real and powerful again. Oh, I so hope!

^^ Oh my gosh. What if they learn that Aslan doesn't need swords to defeat a witch, that he already has defeated teh witch and she can't come back, and that only he can save them from harm; they can't solve there own problems! If that was true I would LOVE this film. Wow, but what are the chances. Great idea though. *sigh* Wish it were true, but its hard to believe.

Watziznehm and Valiant, I *LOVE* your posts and theories! Especially your last one Watziznehm! That would be so cool. And you're right, the Witch/Sea Serpent thing is *so* unlogical. Whoever reported that really had no basis for *saying* that they were the same. He said 'I think they might be' the same. And Narniawebbers took it from there. =) But really, if you think about it *logically* they probably won't be the same.

Wow, Valiant, I love your day dreams for this movie! Be so cool if that'd happen! Actually it sounds a lot like one of my stories (i.e. defeating a witch and 'undoing' the spell of doom only to find that she had already been defeated and no-one else knew about it not even the witch. They were told later =)

Okay, most of the time reading the forums depresses me and makes me sad and discouraged, but the last two posts really hyped me and made me happy! Thanks for sharing you two! For Narnia and the North! For Aslan!

Clip #3

While the Dawn Treader passengers are sleeping on a beach, Caspian wakes up and discovers that Lucy has disappeared.This is an interesting change from the book. Somehow, they felt that Lucy overhearing their conversation and alerting everyone and then the Dufflepods stopping them before they get to the boat wasn't enough. That is so sad, because now no one who has not read the books will get why you must always tie your shoe by a tree. Also, they will not get why you must always call a girl sitting under a tree, Lucy.He alerts everyone, and they begin searching for her. It appears that Lucy has been kidnapped by two invisible giants that take her to a strange-looking garden and to an invisible house, where she finds the Book of Incantations. Here I just think someone messed up and she was taken by two dufflepods. I fear that they might actually have her kidnapped and not just appear to be kidnapped.She must go because she feels it is a very noble act and it is the only way to save the crew and not for any other reason. She has to read the spell that makes the unseen visible. Reciting the magical commands in the book, Lucy makes it snow inside the room.This is a weird thing that they added.And after reciting the incantation to "be the beauty you always wanted to be," Lucy looks in a mirror and sees that her reflection has turned into Susan’s face. I hate the fact that her reflection shows Susan! This makes me so upset! It is not in the book, the ''be the beauty you always wanted to be." It is instead, the ''beauty beyond the lot of mortals.'' Susan does not have beauty beyond the lot of mortals. Otherwise, she would have not just started one war with Calormen over her beauty but many wars with all countries.This is one of the most annoying things in the clips.

I don't think there's a problem with Edmund and Lucy staying at the Scrubbs' house for 253 days, it's probably supposed to show that it's been that long and an extra month or two between this movie and PC (in England of course, not Narnia). I also think it makes sense that Coriakin knows of the darkness, I mean, this could have been going on for a while, but the slave traders were the only ones who knew about it, they kept it to themselves, and it never reached Narnia and Caspian's ears.