glumpuddle im having a difficult time understanding your stand on the movie. I think if Reepicheep mentioned any more longings to be at "Aslans Country" it would be close to crossing the line of 'beating a plot point on your head' which is what you don't seem to agree with. Yet, in your opinion, Reeps longing is more subtle, which is what you felt that the producers should have done more (subtlety).

I guess it all comes down to personal interpretation of the book, which we are all entitled to. I'm sorry you hated the movie. But I don't think its worth disowning the franchise. Chances are, if LWW and PC were fine (in your opinion) we may still see more 'good' adaptations.

Pretty much this.

As far as I can tell, it's more of a personal thing and the way each of us looks at a movie varies from person to person. glumPuddle may not have got a strong impression about Repicheep, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there. I guess that some people saw it there, and some didn't. I certainly did, and I know a lot of others who did.

It is very, very easy for us book lovers to get hung up on certain things. I found myself having to let a few things go and just enjoy the movie, which I did. Thought it was wonderful. But I think the problem a lot of us encounter is that we are looking for specific things and specific moments from the book. I think sometimes we build something up so much in our expectations. We get it in our heads before the movie even comes out that this particular thing has to be done in this particular way or else everything will be ruined. I think sometimes that thing we wanted to see is there, it's right in front of our eyes, but we close our eyes to it because it isn't there the way we thought it should be. I hope that makes some sort of sense

Go read a few critic reviews of the Narnia movies. See what critics have to say about Aslan. Look at some of the people who don't like the Narnia movies/ books. Most people get who Aslan is. I think, though the Narnia movies don't show it quite as much as the books do, they do a good job. The Narnia movies do get criticized for being too Christian, which is more than a lot of Christians can say because we don't even speak our faith so blatantly as the Narnia films, but that's a whole nother topic.

As for saying the longing is there but not near as deeply as it is in the book, I agree with you. Everyone knows books always go into more detail. The book will always flesh out such things more than the movie. That's the way it is with a film adaption. I doubt there could be a film adaption to satisfy you in this matter because you want it to have the same depth as it did in the book. Books will always have more depth and more story than films because books have more time to explain these things.

In fact, the books can just plainly say, Reepicheep felt... or Caspian learned... or When Eustace was undragoned he couldn't do it himself, it felt like... and that sort of thing is where you get the depth of the story in the book. The film tried to show the character arcs AND tell about them as you would in a book, I think this was partly to satisfy the book fans as well as the movie fans, especially in the case of Eustace. But when this sort of thing is done, people complain. I think the character arcs were pretty plain to see, but in addition to that they decided to state the message, as you would in a book.

Again, I'm sorry it didn't please you. I wish it had.

AslanIsOnTheMove, I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with you 100%.

glumPuddle may not have got a strong impression about Repicheep, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there.

But this isn't a matter only of impression, it's a matter of what is included, and that can be measure quantitatively. What parts did you think were expressive of Reep's longing? How large a portion of the film did they take up? And, given that, does it even match the depth of longing that Reep is supposed to have, as per the book?

gP has assembled a detailed argument on the topic, and all you can do is say "it was there"?

Phooey.

glumPuddle may not have got a strong impression about Repicheep, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there.

But this isn't a matter only of impression, it's a matter of what is included, and that can be measure quantitatively. What parts did you think were expressive of Reep's longing? How large a portion of the film did they take up? And, given that, does it even match the depth of longing that Reep is supposed to have, as per the book?

gP has assembled a detailed argument on the topic, and all you can do is say "it was there"?

Phooey.

lysander, I feel this post is sort of uncalled for. Most of us on the previous pages have been mentioning instances where Reepicheep's longing is evident. I myself made a detailed list which I will quote to refresh your memory.

I wrote:
so far we have:

*Reep on the prow facing east, constantly looking ahead.
Even in the storm he did that. I don't think that was to say he's brave. Of course he was the only one enjoying himself. He was coming closer to fulfilling his destiny and his lifelong dream. Eustace wouldn't know or care why Reepicheep was enjoying himself. The fact that he was on the prow, facing east, singing the song of the dryad about finding Aslan's country ought to say something. That should sort of say to the viewer that this is why he's on the prow.

*Lucy and Reepicheep talking about Aslan's Country when he talks about his desire to go there.

*The Sweet Water scene.
He is once again singing the song of the dryad. (Can you tell what's on his mind? ) While he's in the water he tastes it and gets really excited because it's sweet and they're getting closer to Aslan's Country. (I was so happy they kept this part from the book, I love the sweet water moment.)

*The very end where he actually goes to Aslan's Country.
He states very clearly that this is what he's longed for his entire life. He says that he would gladly give up his sword for the pleasure of going.

Anyone who knows anything about Reepicheep knows that this is a HUGE thing for Reepicheep. Anyone who saw PC would know that. He loves a fight. He lives by the sword. It was evident. To have the line about laying down the sword conveys a deep longing to me. It's like laying your entire life, everything you've ever known, down for something. Even if you look at different reviews and overviews of VDT you see that when people refer to Reepicheep he's called a warrior mouse, these are random critics and people who may or may not have read the books. Reepicheep's whole identity is in the sword and in being a warrior, especially in the movies. Anyone would get that. Yet he is laying down the thing that has defined him all his life for something he feels is even greater. This, my friend, is much deeper than a kid wanting to go to Disneyland. I think this comes through in the movie. If nowhere else, the longing is summed up in the line about the sword and the actual laying down of the sword, where he happily lays it down and says "I won't be needing this anymore."

The issue is not that it wasn't there. It was there. The problem is that there are many major themes in the book. The significance of each theme varies from person to person. Because there are so many major themes each person may have one that they saw as the main theme, however another person may not have even gotten that impression from the book at all because they were so focused on another theme in the book which they saw as the most important. I hope I'm making sense. It feels confusing to write that out.

In the movie they can't do all the themes. They certainly can't do them all justice. There isn't enough time. They picked one theme from the book, temptation, and made that the major theme. I think they did their best to fit the other themes in and turn them into subplots.

The thing about film adaptions is that you can never get all the depth there was in the book. You can never fully capture a book on film because books have all this time and all these pages to say what a film can only say in two maybe three hours. It isn't fair to the filmmakers to expect the movie to have the depth the book has. You simply can't go into as much detail. You can't get inside the characters like you can in the book. In a really, really amazing film you may come close to getting that sort of depth and detail, but you almost never have a film that can go into the same detail as the book. If they come so close to having that depth, then that basically has to be the only theme in the film because there isn't much room to convey anything else.

Reepicheep's longing was certainly in there. Whether it got enough attention, well that depends on how important is was to you when you read the book. If it was the main theme to you in the book, the one that spoke the loudest, then no, it didn't get enough time. If you're one of the people who felt the main theme was temptation, redemption, adventure, Aslan always being there for you, or one of the many, many other themes, then you would probably feel it got enough time.

As for me, the strongest theme in the book was redemption. This was the one I felt strongest about anyway. It was on the same level of importance as everything else, I suppose, but it was the most important to me. Reepicheep's longing wasn't what drove the story, to me. So I thought it got enough attention. The above mentioned scenes where enough to convey the message.

I'm sorry you apparently weren't pleased with the movie either. I hope they get to make The Silver Chair and you love it

*EDIT as for quantity, I am not sure, but I don't think there's too much quantity in the book. It's not how often Reepicheep states his desire so much as what he says and the heart behind it that matters, especially in a movie where you don't have time to constantly harp on something that isn't even the major theme. (Those of you who feel it's the major theme in the book, I'm not saying it isn't the major theme in the book, I'm saying it wasn't the major theme chosen for the movie since they had to pick one.)

I totally agree with what AslanIsOnTheMove said, they had 2 hours to convey what they saw as important in the book in a enjoyable, followable way, that kept the attention of everyone even non-book fans(if the series catered to only the book fans it wouldn't have gotten past LWW) will enjoy all the way through. Reep's longing for Aslan's Country was lucky that it got the screen time it did.

glumpuddle im having a difficult time understanding your stand on the movie. I think if Reepicheep mentioned any more longings to be at "Aslans Country" it would be close to crossing the line of 'beating a plot point on your head' which is what you don't seem to agree with. Yet, in your opinion, Reeps longing is more subtle, which is what you felt that the producers should have done more (subtlety).

I would not describe Reep's deep, desperate longing as subtle. I would describe it as nonexistent.

He mentions Aslan's country a grand total of 1 time: "I only hope I shall one day earn the right to see it." There needed to be one scene early in the film were it is conveyed that Reep has been desperately wanting this his entire life. Then, when they reached the end, the scene where he finally reached it would have been powerful.

AslanIsOntheMove, lets take a look at your list:

*Reep on the prow facing east, constantly looking ahead.
Even in the storm he did that. I don't think that was to say he's brave. Of course he was the only one enjoying himself. He was coming closer to fulfilling his destiny and his lifelong dream. Eustace wouldn't know or care why Reepicheep was enjoying himself. The fact that he was on the prow, facing east, singing the song of the dryad about finding Aslan's country ought to say something. That should sort of say to the viewer that this is why he's on the prow.

The lyrics to the song are treated as an afterthought. Background music for a long epic shot of the Dawn Treader. They are not emphasized at all. I doubt you could find a single non-reader who could remember the lyrics. This is what I mean when I say that Reep's longing has been reduced to an easter egg that only fans of the book will be able to find.

By easter egg, I mean something that only fans who know the book will catch. Just like the Jill Pole reference. That's a big moment for fans because they know the books. It means nothing at all to a non-reader. Likewise, the verse is big for fans because they know the book. But because it is not emphasized, it means nothing to non-readers.

As for the storm shot...I am still totally confused about what that has to do with Aslan's country. We're watching a shot of Reep in the middle of the storm as Eustace says "he is one of those glass-is-always-half-full types." The only way you can infer that shot has anything to do with Aslan's country is if you have already read the book. I think you are starting with a conclusion and then looking for evidence. We should be looking at the evidence and then drawing a conclusion.

*Lucy and Reepicheep talking about Aslan's Country when he talks about his desire to go there.

"I only hope I shall earn the right to see it." That's it. That's all we get. Reep thinks it would just be cool to go there. That's really weak.

*The Sweet Water scene.
He is once again singing the song of the dryad. (Can you tell what's on his mind? ) While he's in the water he tastes it and gets really excited because it's sweet and they're getting closer to Aslan's Country. (I was so happy they kept this part from the book, I love the sweet water moment.)

The lyrics to the verse are not noticeable. I doubt you could find a single non-reader who even heard him say the bit about sweet waves. But even if they did hear it, I doubt they remembered when this scene came. But even if they did remember, the scene is not treated like it's important. Do the others even hear Reep make his discovery? They just kind of stand there giggling.

*The very end where he actually goes to Aslan's Country.
He states very clearly that this is what he's longed for his entire life. He says that he would gladly give up his sword for the pleasure of going

They waited until the very end of the movie to have Reep say this. I cannot get my mind around why they did this. Why not have Reep say this at the beginning of the movie? Then, we he finally got there, it would have real emotional impact. In the movie, we don't know Reep has wanted to go to Aslan's country all his life until ten seconds before he goes.

AslanIsOnTheMove, you may not agree that Reep's deep, desperate longing is gone. But, at the very least, you have to admit that Reep's longing is much weaker than it is in the book. Compare your list to the quotes I used in the first post.

In the movie they can't do all the themes. They certainly can't do them all justice. There isn't enough time. They picked one theme from the book, temptation, and made that the major theme. I think they did their best to fit the other themes in and turn them into subplots.

Okay, so we agree that they did not do Reep's longing justice. Not even close. The difference is that I have a huge problem with this, and you do not.

By saying "they did not have enough time for it," you are acknowledging that it was not in the film.

gP wrote:
The lyrics to the song are treated as an afterthought. Background music for a long epic shot of the Dawn Treader. They are not emphasized at all. I doubt you could find a single non-reader who could remember the lyrics. This is what I mean when I say that Reep's longing has been reduced to an easter egg that only fans of the book will be able to find.

I did read the book and I don't remember those lyrics. As I said, different themes are more important to different people and this one is not the one that jumped out at me in the book. I don't have the book on me at the moment. Could you tell me how many times they lyrics are written out in the book?

As for my starting with the conclusion, I do have grounds for what I said besides knowing the final outcome and that Reepicheep's longing is supposed to be there. The fact that I've already read the book may or may not have anything to do with how I view the evidence. Fact is, I have read the book. So I'm going to view the movie as someone who as read the book. I can't say what I would or would not have seen if I hadn't read the book. I can't speak for non-readers. But if I had to guess, I would say they picked up on the longing even more than we did. It feels smaller to us because it felt bigger in the book.

What are my other grounds? In the scene with Lucy, where Aslan's Country is first mentioned, Reep is up front, facing east, singing his song. He then goes on to explain his song to Lucy and express his desire. From then on, this creates an association in the viewer's mind with Reep's looking ahead atop the Dawn Treader and his desire for Aslan's Country.

An advantage the film has over the book is that we can see body language. We can tell that Reepicheep is looking for something, there is a reason he keeps going out and looking ahead and it isn't because he likes to get wet. How do we know the reason? We've created the association, now, from his talk with Lucy.

That's why the storm scene is important. He keeps looking ahead, with determination. What is he looking for? Aslan's Country. How do we know? Again, the talk woth Lucy.

"I only hope I shall earn the right to see it." That's it. That's all we get. Reep thinks it would just be cool to go there. That's really weak.

You're forgetting the, "We have nothing if not belief" line. Here, again, we have body language and tone of voice which we didn't have in the book. It isn't mentioned as much as it is in the book, but it isn't really necessary to say it as often because when it is said we can see the meaning it has to Reepicheep. It's written all over his face and you can hear it in his voice. The only way you can convey the longing in a book is to mention it repeatedly. Not so with film.

The lyrics to the verse are not noticeable. I doubt you could find a single non-reader who even heard him say the bit about sweet waves. But even if they did hear it, I doubt they remembered when this scene came. But even if they did remember, the scene is not treated like it's important. Do the others even hear Reep make his discovery? They just kind of stand there giggling.

I noticed them. Some readers didn't. Could be that some non-readers noticed and others didn't. But I think everyone heard him yell, "Sweet! Sweet! The water's sweet!!!!" If that didn't make sense to them I'm sure they would think for a moment and recall the song. This isn't Finding Nemo. The viewers are not Dory. I think they can recall something they've heard less than two hours prior. Give them a little credit. I think we worry too much about what viewers can and can't see. The movie can mostly speak for itself. Having not read the books doesn't make the audience a bunch of unperceiving idiots. They can pick up on things.

They waited until the very end of the movie to have Reep say this. I cannot get my mind around why they did this. Why not have Reep say this at the beginning of the movie? Then, we he finally got there, it would have real emotional impact. In the movie, we don't know Reep has wanted to go to Aslan's country all his life until ten seconds before he goes.

I refer you back to the scenes that have already been mentioned. He sings the song at least twice, maybe more. Constantly looking ahead for Aslan's Country. The fact that the song still holds meaning to him after all those years would suggest this is a lifelong dream of his. They didn't wait until the end of the movie to show his longing; they waited until the end to bring a climax to his subtle arc.

AslanIsOnTheMove, you may not agree that Reep's deep, desperate longing is gone. But, at the very least, you have to admit that Reep's longing is much weaker than it is in the book. Compare your list to the quotes I used in the first post.

I wouldn't call it weaker... Weaker, isn't really the right word because it still held the same power for me. Like I said, I don't view is as the main theme of the book. It wasn't the most powerful thing to me to begin with. I wouldn't call it weaker so much as less frequent. Maybe a bit condensed. But it was still just as powerful to me. They demoted it from one of the major themes to more of a subplot, but I don't feel the power in it was lost just because it didn't get a lot of screen time. How many times was his longing actually mentioned in the book in comparison to the size of the book? I think if you look at how many pages Reepicheep's longing actually takes up in the entire book and how much time the longing takes in the movie you'll come up with about the same ratio. I could be wrong in that. In this matter, it's not so much how often the longing is mentioned so much as the power behind the longing. In which case I think it's about the same.

Okay, so we agree that they did not do Reep's longing justice. Not even close. The difference is that I have a huge problem with this, and you do not.

I agree that it's condensed and that they didn't have time to go into every detail of the longing like Mr. Lewis did in the book. When I said they couldn't do all the themes jutice, I was talking about all the themes. I think they saw this one as important enough to keep in the movie. I agree that it was a major theme in the book and it's a minor theme in the movie. But I think when it's done in the movie, it's done well enough that it isn't robbed of its power. So yes, I think that particular theme was done justice, considering it's a film adaption and there's always more detail and depth in a book.

By saying "they did not have enough time for it," you are acknowledging that it was not in the film.

No. I'm sorry I gave you that impression. What I meant was they didn't have time to make that a major theme. There are too many themes in the book for them to make every theme a major theme. It was definitely in the movie. It just wasn't what they picked to be the major theme. You don't feel it was done justice because you saw it as the major theme. If you see it as the major theme then it wasn't done justice and you think the entire movie should've been about that theme. I don't see it as the major theme. I see it as one of the many themes in the book, though I do have a theme which speaks the loudest to me.

I think it was a good move to have the major theme as temptation because there's room in VDT to use that theme and have it affect all the characters in keeping with the book. If the entire film had been about Reepicheep's longing, well in the book, it was mostly Reepicheep who wanted to go. This would put Reepicheep as the main character. Rather than the movie being about the crew and the voyage they take we would have a Reepicheep movie. Then they'd have to call it The Chronicles of Narnia: The Voyage of Reepicheep.

It's really early here and the room is very dark, so I hope everything I said makes sense. lol

AslanIsOnTheMove said,
Could you tell me how many times they lyrics are written out in the book?

Unless I'm mistaken the words are only mentioned twice and there is another mention of him sitting on the bow humming his tune. that is just as much as there is in the movie.
It is just that in a book you can just say things about people without it looking weird, that cannot be done in a movie. Everything has to be spoken or said in body language and things like that.

Okay I don't know if this has been covered at all but this is what I remember from the book haven't read it that recently so i might get some minor facts wrong.

When reepicheep set sail for the worlds end (in the book), I felt like he took a part with me. I was hoping he would change his mind while I was reading the book. Because there was no real certanty that were he was going he would just die or be trapped in a void, abbys, portal of some sorts... I hated this part about the movie, it was like oh you're gonna go to a happy lala land, who wouldn't want to do that? Reepicheep was the only one of the dawn treader crew to volunteer. The whole point was that Reepicheep had faith that he was sailing to Aslans country. He was sailing off the worlds end who knew what lay beyond that? In he movie Aslan spelled it out for our dear Reepicheep. Also to the casual movie goer they're probably like what the heck heros don't look for an easy way out they fight there the thick and thin. Not hang up there sword and leave there friends for a better life

And Reepicheep never thought himself of deserving to go to Aslans country in the book, but in the movie it came across as something you could earn

Hope that made some sort of sense....

The lyrics to the song are treated as an afterthought. Background music for a long epic shot of the Dawn Treader.

They're barely audible, for that matter. Very difficult to make out. And put to such jaunty music! Not really expressive of longing at all. In both the BBC version and the FotF audio book, they lyrics aren't sung, but recited -- but they're recited with such deep emotion and longing that I can remember the words and how they're said. In the movie it's like, "Oh, look. Reep's singing. Cute."

Even the way Reep mentions the lullaby being sung to him is downplayed in the movie. It's something along the lines of, "A dryad used to sing this to me in my cradle. Dunno what it means. Can't seem to forget the words."

In the book he says, The spell of it has been on me all my life.

The words have a power they are not granted in the movie.

They waited until the very end of the movie to have Reep say this. I cannot get my mind around why they did this.

It also made Reep's longing a case of telling rather than showing. We should have been shown throughout that Reep has a deep, abiding longing for Aslan's country, and instead we are told he was at the very end. We're asked to take his statement as truth, even though nothing that came beforehand really lends it credence.

As I said, different themes are more important to different people and this one is not the one that jumped out at me in the book.

What in the world did you think the important themes of the book, then? This is sorta one of the big ones. Even Michael Flaherty, president of Walden Media, said in a recent interview that Dawn Treader was about finding a home.

It's written all over his face and you can hear it in his voice.

On the contrary, his body language and tone of voice in this scene are pretty lackadaisical, and not expressive of longing for something more than anything else in the world.

As I posted earlier in the thread, the theme which spoke the loudest to me was redeption.

My sister and I were talking about this earlier. She and I came to the conclusion that if Reepicheep's longing was what you connected to most in the book then you definitely didn't get enough of it, but if that theme wasn't as important to you as the others then you were probably ok. Which is what I've been trying to say but hopefully that made it a little more clear as to where I stand.

I am sorry for those of you who didn't get enough of it in the film. I really wish the movie had pleased you.

But to say it wasn't there at all simply isn't true. Several of us have posted momemts where it is evident. The issue isn't whether it's there or not. The issue is whether it was there enough. That varies depending on how much it spoke to you in the book.

Okay I don't know if this has been covered at all but this is what I remember from the book haven't read it that recently so i might get some minor facts wrong.

When reepicheep set sail for the worlds end (in the book), I felt like he took a part with me. I was hoping he would change his mind while I was reading the book. Because there was no real certanty that were he was going he would just die or be trapped in a void, abbys, portal of some sorts... I hated this part about the movie, it was like oh you're gonna go to a happy lala land, who wouldn't want to do that? Reepicheep was the only one of the dawn treader crew to volunteer. The whole point was that Reepicheep had faith that he was sailing to Aslans country. He was sailing off the worlds end who knew what lay beyond that? In he movie Aslan spelled it out for our dear Reepicheep. Also to the casual movie goer they're probably like what the heck heros don't look for an easy way out they fight there the thick and thin. Not hang up there sword and leave there friends for a better life

And Reepicheep never thought himself of deserving to go to Aslans country in the book, but in the movie it came across as something you could earn

Hope that made some sort of sense....

This is the only part about the movie that bugged me. I didn't like that it seemed you could earn Aslan's Country, and I didn't like that Reepicheep went in only because it was his lifelong dream.

In the book he would have gone without any other motivation besides his deep longing. But the thing is, in the book, although he already had that passion and longing he was given another motivation. He had to be left at the end of the world im order to break the spell over the last three lords. It was sort of a sacrificial thing, even though Reepicheep wanted to go.

In the movie, there was no other motive. He had nothing driving him to go except his desire to go to Aslan's Country. My sister and I were like, "Wow, isn't that kinda like suicide??? End your life here and go straight to heaven? Creepy." Again that isn't out of character for Reepicheep because he wanted to go even before he knew it would save the lords, but still...

I don't think what Reepicheep did was suicide at all! Although I do understand how it could be taken that way. It struck me as being more like the Biblical translations (or ascensions) of Enoch and Elijah. In my mind, Reep didn't die; rather, he went straight to Aslan's Country, without brushing with death at all.

The issues for me here are that (a) the concept of "earning" the right to go to Aslan's Country is totally contrary to everything Lewis argued and believed, and that (b) Reep's desire to go there wasn't properly set up. But the lack of an additional motivator ... eh, it doesn't bother me too much.

It bothered me that he earned the right to Aslan`s Country as well. I cringed at those parts. I wonder why they had to add that. If they knew Eustace shouldn`t have earned his undragoning (and it can be argued whether it did look like he earned his undragoning) why didn`t they realize Reep couldn`t earn the right to Aslan`s Country. I would have thought someone would have told them that wasn`t in line with what lewis believed.