Narnia is the land of animals, so why take only humans on board? In the book itself, it speaks of Caspian teaching the Narnians to be more seafaring folk.

True, but, I really don't think the main bulk of the crew were Narnians or Telmarines. Caspian's voyage is a journey into the unknown. It's only been three years since they started building ships and such. Since the voyage is supposed to last no less than "a year and a day" according to Caspian's vow, taking an experienced crew would make more sense. At the very least, I think Drinian, Rhince, and Rynelf are from either Archenland or Galma. But that is just my personal theory, and the only evidence from the books I have to back it up is one of the crew is said to be old and from Galma (I think it's on Ramandu's Island and he's the one that suggests wintering there, but I'm not sure).

but wait - in PC it's been 1300 years after the events of LWW.....anything could have happened in Narnia in all that time. so I think that Andrew was taking the liberty of having the minotaurs be nice guys because they might have joined the good side somewhere between LWW and PC! and Lewis never said whether or not minotaurs were only on WW's side or whether they were on both sides! so Andrew sort of made it his own in that respect and I myself see nothing wrong with it.
but putting a minotuar on board a ship? that's interesting. but this time we have Michael Apted to wonder at, not Andrew.

I agree with Lady Galadriel: since VotDT takes place in all locations except Narnia itself, Michael Apted might have thought it reasonable to have as many Narnian creatures on board as possible. think about it. there are some people who watch the Narnia movies who have never read the books. so in the movie version, there has to be enough stuff to keep everyone in the know about what's going on. so since LWW and PC had all these Narnian creatures in the movies, then Michael Apted is probably trying to keep things consistant! I like this.

Lucy P, I believe if you read through this thread you'll see people have posted MANY reasons for why a minotaur shouldn't be added to the crew. Here are just some of the reasons

[list=1]

They're big, bulky and not very nimble and could easily get in the way.[/*1k0x5amm]

They have hooves and would have a hard time keeping their balance in rough situations (storms, choppy water, etc.)[/*1k0x5amm]

They shouldn't have even been included in Caspian's army in PC because they were bad guys in LWW and should therefor neither be part of Caspian's crew.[/*1k0x5amm]

Minotaur's would likely take a huge chunk out of the limited food supply to stay alive.[/*1k0x5amm][/list1k0x5amm]

As far as the strength of the minotaur; it's irrelevant, imo (although I see the point Bookwrym was trying to make).

I'll always be a,
NL101

I have as a matter of fact read through this thread, but you have my sincere apologies for posting my feelings without outlining the underlying reasons for them. In penitence I'll address the objections in detail:

1. Yes, they're big and bulky. But a minotaur who can rough it in the woods should be able to keep his balance on a boat. I run through a forest without a path for exercise, and trust me, it's quite a feat for those who aren't fleet of foot. Also, we're only talking about two or a few more beasts. It's not as if there's going to be an entire troop of minotaurs stamping around the p**p deck.

2. Yes, hooves slip. So do boots for that matter. Not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

3. Minotaurs were included in Caspian's army in PC. I don't think that was a bad thing in the first place. I'd like to submit that minotaurs aren't intrinsically evil. I would be upset if hags and werewolves ended up on Caspian's side, since in the Narnia series they are pretty explicitly and exclusively on the 'dark side', so to speak, of magic. However, I think that when it comes to allegiance minotaurs are more like big cats and dwarves, and that they can be on either side without doing injustice to the books.
Aside from morals, just think about what is more logical politically. In VDT, would minotaurs be allied to the king they supported 3 years ago or the queen they supported 1300 years ago? They were with Caspian in PC. What's done is done, and it just makes more sense for minotaurs to still be loyal to him in VDT.
I completely agree with GB, wolfloversk, and Liberty on this.

4. I should think that the Dawn Treader's storeroom could support a minotaur or two, especially with the frequent stops it makes to refuel on islands and the fishing available on the wide ocean seas.

Lucy P, Yes, yes, yes, and yes . You've hit all my points. I couldn't agree more.

As an adaptation, following on from the previous film, there is no good reason to not include a Minotaur, and maybe a centaur and a faun or two (and perhaps even a Dwarf and a couple other kinds of Talking Animals besides Reepicheep). The Dawn Treader is supposed to be the first Narnian ship since the Telmarines took over, it ought to feature a few NATIVE Narnians (and frankly, I was always a bit disappointed that Lewis forgot to include them in the book).

GB

I couldn't find anything on wolves, but there were black dwarves (besides Nikabrik) who fought for Caspian, there was also a giant and a raven.

According to Wikipedia (granted thats not the best of sources) two of the original illustrations could possibly depict minotaurs or minotaur like creatures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Na ... reatures#V

Ironically they both seem to be depicted as being on Aslan's side.

Lucy P: I'm a little confused as to why you would ask a question like "Really, why wouldn't a minotaur be added to the crew?" when you already had read through this thread and seen many reasons.

I don't think running through a forest is similar to being on a boat AT ALL. In a forest there is dirt, leaves, sticks, etc. on board a ship all there is is wood, and even slippery and wet wood in the case of storms. Dirt is much easier to gain traction of then wood is. Boots can slip on wet wood, I'll give you that, but the difference is they have rubber soles that help keep them from doing so, all minotaurs have are hard hoofs that would slip across the wood almost uncontrollably, esp. if the boat was rocking.

I don't think it's fair to say minotaurs aren't intrinsically evil, but then turn around and say wolves and hags are. Where in the book is such a distinction made? I certainly don't remember it.

Gandalfs Beard: I don't think Lewis "forgot" to include them at all. I think it was an intentional decision, and one I much approve of. Having creatures aboard the dawn treader almost takes away some of the wonder of the things happening to the crew. When they are (mostly) all human it makes it all the stranger when weird things happen to them.

wolfloversk: If you find that quote, please do share it, because I can't recall reading anything like that, but it's quite possible I simple forgot. As to your link, I don't think that just because the original illustrations SEEMS to indicate Minotaur like creatures in Aslan's army we should believe that Lewis intended them to be there. I've heard that there were several things Baynes (the original illustrated) did that Lewis didn't exactly approve of.

I'll always be a,
NL101

Lucy P didn't say "Hags and Wolves" NL101, she said "Hags and Werewolves". Big difference . In Lewis's mythology Hags and Werewolves were intrinsically "evil". They weren't accepted into the fight against Miraz. Giants, Dwarves, and other beings were.

Pauline Baynes worked closely with CS Lewis and he had final approval of the artwork according to anything I've read on the subject.

And the other stuff about hooves, being bulky, etc. isn't a good enough reason to dismiss Minotaurs because there is no way to "prove" the point as they are Fantasy Creatures and can run around on a ship just fine if the author wants them too.

You have a valid point as to why Lewis "forgot" to put Narnians on the ship , but it really wasn't necessary for him to have left them off. And the film, as an adaptation, has a number of credible reasons for including Narnian creatures.

GB

Just because some critters (i.e. hags and werewolves) in the WW's army were inherently evil doesn't mean all such critters were evil. The WW also had dwarves in her army but not all dwarves were evil. Some of the trees were said to be on her side, obviously most trees weren't evil. Some talking animals were on her side, some giants were on her side, etc. etc.

I think I've made my point .

GB

GB, your arguments are normally a lot more solid than this.

Of course dwarfs and trees and talking animals and giants aren't all evil. We see plenty of good ones to counterbalance the evil ones. You seem to be arguing that even though the only minotaurs, hags, and werewolves we see are evil, minotaurs aren't inherently evil, but hags and werewolves are. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You could just as easily say that hags and werewolves aren't inherently evil then.

These are the only quotes I can recall that mention minotaurs.

"No," said the Witch. "There need be no flying. Go quickly. Summon all our people to meet me here as speedily as they can. Call out the giants and the werewolves and the spirits of those trees who are on our side. Call the Ghouls, and the Boggles, the Ogres, and the Minotaurs. Call the Cruels, the Hags, the Specters, and the people of the Toadstools."

But such people! Ogres with monstrous teeth, and wolves, and bull-headed men; spirits of evil trees and poisonous plants; and other creatures whom I won't describe because if I did the grown-ups would probably not let you read this book ...

As the quotes make clear, minotaurs are definitely amongst the Witch's army. Furthermore, Lewis makes a point of indicating that the tree spirits in her army are evil and does so twice. As for the illustrations, if you look at the picture of the Witch's army at the Stone table, the minotaurs are very easy to pick out. They have oversized bull heads on human bodies. The only thing vaguely resembling that in illustrations of Aslan's army are a few faunish/centaurish looking creatures with horns.

And there's the PC passage.

And the next oldest said,"Shall we go farther up for you, up to the crags? There's an Ogre or two and a Hag that we could introduce you to, up there."

"Certainly not," said Caspian.

"I should think not, indeed," said Trufflehunter. " We want none of that sort on our side." Nikabrik disagreed with this, but Trumpkin and the Badger overruled him. It gave Caspian a shock to realize that the horrible creatures out of the old stories, as well as the nice ones, had some descendants in Narnia still.

"We should not have Aslan for friend if we brought in that rabble," said Trufflehunter.

I have no question in my mind that Adamson felt that his ideas about the CoN superseded anything Lewis had to say. All you have to do is read his comments about Susan fighting or the Susaspian romance that he made up entirely from his own head. The continued presence of the minotaurs is just another nail in the coffin. I suspect we'll see further disrespect for the canon as long as he's connected with the franchise.

Actually my point is that we only read about Hags and Werewolves being denied entry into Caspian's army. Therefore we can't preclude all Minotaurs as being intrinsically evil. But we can for Hags and Werewolves. That's Prof Kirke Logic for you .

Now we can't necessarily preclude Boggles, Ghouls, Ogres, and Toadstool Spirits either as they aren't specifically rejected in PC. But I think we can sort through the list in LWW and make some educated inclusions on a case by case basis.

For example: you bolded "spirits of the trees who are on our side", which confirms my earlier point that obviously not all trees are evil. The list also includes giants. Yet there are stone giants in the WW's garden who Aslan reawakens, and Wimbleweather who fights for Narnia in PC.

The second list includes Wolves ("regular" ones), but there is no indication that they are always evil. Same with the aforementioned Tree Spirits (some are good some are bad).

And we can most likely rule out Spirits of Poisonous Plants for inclusion in Caspian's army, and probably also Toadstool People.

Now Minotaurs are in the same class of beings as Fauns and Centaurs (part human part animal) and there really is no reason to believe that they should all be evil any more than any other (mythically) "natural" creature.

Werewolves are different by tradition (at least until modern reinventions), because like Vampires they represent the Curse of Dark Magic (i.e. they aren't "natural" creatures--mythically speaking). Same goes for Hags who represent Demonic Spirits in physical form (there is a passage in the Bible (Isaiah 34:14) which variously translates "Lilith" into "Hag", "Night Bird", "Night Owl", "Night Demon" etc. depending on the translation). Likewise Ghoul is an Anglicization of the Arabic word Ghul, which literally means Demon, and refers to Undead Spirits who inhabit graveyards or tombs and eat human flesh.

So in conclusion, YES there are some beings we can rule out of Caspian's army as intrinsically evil, whether specified or not. The rest are up for grabs, just like humans .

GB

Couldn't agree more, Gandalf's Beard!

Lucy P: I'm a little confused as to why you would ask a question like "Really, why wouldn't a minotaur be added to the crew?" when you already had read through this thread and seen many reasons.

Because I disagree with all of those reasons. Twas a rhetorical query.

Gandalfs Beard: I don't think Lewis "forgot" to include them at all. I think it was an intentional decision, and one I much approve of. Having creatures aboard the dawn treader almost takes away some of the wonder of the things happening to the crew. When they are (mostly) all human it makes it all the stranger when weird things happen to them.

A minotaur freeing slaves, narrowly avoiding being turned into gold, or being captured by invisible Dufflepuds seems to me to be just as fantastic as when humans are in the same situation. In fact, I think that minotaurs on board add to the weirdness/magic, rather than detracting from it.

I cannot stop laughing at what Bookwyrm said. That's funny! Anyways I really do not like the idea of having Minotaurs aboard the ship and hopefully it is just one of them. If it is one i can live with that and see how it is going to be played out, but yes if I was a guy I would be very afraid to book a cabin room with a minotaur or maybe he will sleep outside, they are used to outside anyway.. but then i'd still be afraid to sleep.

But like pyxis is saying, there's really no point for them unless they are used for Narnian diversity from the films.

Gandalf's Beard: You're pulling from all different sources to make your conclusion, but if you simply look at Lewis' writings and nothing else there can be no reason to believe Minotaurs aren't intrinsically evil, but hags and werewolves are (Sorry about accidentally putting "wolves" ).

Oh yes, I'm sure a minotaur can run around on a ship just fine if an author wants them too, but here's the problem; Lewis didn't want them too. This is something the movie makers concocted, not Lewis, and I'm pretty convinced that even if it was Lewis' idea, I would still think it sort of odd.

Another reason for my not liking the inclusion of Minotaurs is that I know they were mainly included because Adamson found them "cool", which is NOT a good bases. Perhaps this isn't such a valid reason, but I can't seem to shake the little voice in my head telling me that the minotaurs are only there to please a director who thought they were cool.

I'll always be a,
NL101

In regards to minotaurs being able to easily slip on deck: I don't think the forest analogy can be ruled out so easily, I hike a lot and moss and rocks can be extremely slipery and dangerous especially after a rainstorm. Secondly I have no doubt that it rains in Narnia, so the minotaurs are probably well adapted for those conditions. Also in HHB Tumnus accompanies the Kings and Queens to Calormene, via ship. Hooved animals, at least in Narnia, can go on ships. I again would like to point out my mustang/ cattle argument which I mentioned earlier. Although these animals were most likely kept below deck, I will give you that. Finally a solution to the problem, horseshoes, or minotaur shoes- I don't think it would be very difficult to make rubber bottomed or soled minotaur shoes in order to gain traction.

Actually my point is that we only read about Hags and Werewolves being denied entry into Caspian's army. Therefore we can't preclude all Minotaurs as being intrinsically evil. But we can for Hags and Werewolves. That's Prof Kirke Logic for you .

You're ignoring the PC quotes. Trufflehunter doesn't say "Well, we don't want Hags and Werewolves, but we'll take some of those nice Minotaurs, please." He says they want none of that sort and Aslan would not be their friend if they had them in the army. There's no way you can interpret that other than "that sort" refers to the creatures in the witch's army.

For example: you bolded "spirits of the trees who are on our side", which confirms my earlier point that obviously not all trees are evil. The list also includes giants. Yet there are stone giants in the WW's garden who Aslan reawakens, and Wimbleweather who fights for Narnia in PC.

I'm guessing you missed the part in my post were I said that we knew giants and trees were not all evil because we see good ones in action. I bolded that section because the Witch herself makes a point of indicating a distinction between the trees in her army and others.

As for Minotaurs being "natural" and like fauns and centaurs, the only Minotaur in mythology was the freakish mutant offspring of a god and a human who ate people and had to be locked up in a maze to keep him from destroying everything. We see good and bad fauns and centaurs in mythology; there's not exactly a good Minotaur running around. You can't cite mythology that backs up Werewolves and Hags being evil and then ignore the mythology that supports Minotaurs being evil.

^The argument depends on the exact definition of "that sort", we know for a fact that it includes ogres and hags, but we also know for a fact that it can't mean the entire army of the White Witch since we know that it does not include Black Dwarves. The question lies with where do you draw the line for the rest of the species. I see your argument with the minotaur being evil hear, but the only myths about faus (maybe they were satyrs?) that I recall paint them as evil, or at least extremely sly, trickster-like gods. In Narnia centaurs, fauns, and satyrs are creatures not gods. I personally believe this applies to the minotaurs as well.