I guess what I was kinda trying to go after was that if a democracy was in place there wouldn't be as much of a need for escorts and whatnot, but after I posted that, I kinda answered my own question

And as for the second point Anhun I kinda brainfarted due to those long posts

carry on

Has anyone thought that Archenland could be a darker-skinned race as well? It would be a little deviant from the book, but it might get people past the subject... I don't know. What do you think?

I think that the key to keeping the Calormene culture in this film without sounding racist (which is a hard thing these days - you describe someone as being Indian or Chinese and people call you racist, even though you were not in any way implying that they were inferior to you, simply describing their background) is to emphasize that it was the Calormene rulers that were the bad guys and that the normal Calormene citizens had no say in the villainy the rulers committed.
I don't know about anyone else, but I really enjoyed reading about the Calormene culture when I was younger - the bright silks, the exotic fruits, all that sort of stuff. I do think it is important to keep that in there and not change it into something similar to Narnia and Archenland for the sake of making the film less offensive.
As a side note, earlier in this thread Edmund's role in this film (if it ever gets made) was discussed. I do believe his part is vitally important in the story and I don't think I'd want him to be switched with Peter (if the filmmakers really want to keep Will M.'s fans happy, I don't see anything wrong with showing him fighting off the giants - that could make for an interesting side story). Now, correct me if I'm wrong, I heard this quite a while ago and I'm quite uncertain whether this is correct, but isn't Skandar doing his University course on Islamic history or Arabic culture or something like that? Because if it was, then maybe he'd show a little more interest in acting, just for this movie? That's just a thought, although I don't have too much of an issue with having another actor play Edmund (as long as he looks like Skandar - I'm fairly sure that audiences would be sufficiently confused if a guy with red hair were to play Edmund! )

I do agree with you, 1000% Ionic Bonding Rocks, that the key to filming HHB would be to emphasize the villainy of the Calormene leadership, whilst understanding that the ordinary Calormene citizens had no say in their society. By the way, Skandar Keynes does plan to go to Yemen to further his Islamic studies. He, at least, should he take part in this film, will be able to ensure a fair film without perpetuating any injustices.

Just a random question in terms of middle eastern cultures and HHB:
Do you think that with all of the uprisings for democracy in arab countries going on now and the rate that it's taking for these films to be made, old arab traditions (i.e. the clearing the road thing from earlier) will no longer be a problem/seen as offensive??

I think it's a possibility, depends on how many of the uprisings succeed. But regardless of the culture, skin pigmentation may still be an issue.

I also agree with you Dinode, that if these uprisings for democracy do succeed then we may see a different reaction by the time HHB gets to be filmed, if at all. That is, if all these uprisings are not being provoked by outside powers. / And yes, if film makers insist on making an issue of skin pigmentation, that might really be a problem, so I hope skin colour is not a feature of HHB. As Shy Galadriel says, the Archenlanders might well have had just as dark complexions as the Calormenes, sufficient for most people in Tashbaan not to notice Shasta accompanying Aravis and the horses.

1st of all, the Calormenes, particularly in the way they dress, are really more like medieval arabs than modern arabs. Just as the Archenlanders are more like medieval Europeans. The fact that Euros no longer walk around in tunics and chain mail (most of them anyway ) does not make it any less clear that the superiority of the Archenlanders is intended to represent a general European supremacy. So no, even if the revolutions were to somehow result in a radical change in Arab culture, it would not change Arab cultural history, and would not in any way weaken the association between Calormenes and arabs.

Fair point about Calormenes dressing like medieval Arabs. Or do you mean post 1453 Ottoman Turks, which I think would be more accurate? And I do agree that C.S.Lewis takes too rosy a view of Medieval Europe. The Islamic civilizations of Moorish Spain, the Damascus Caliphate and then the Ottoman empire did have their highpoints. And Medieval Europe could be just as oppressive towards women, or worse, compared to their Middle Eastern counterparts.

But I think you must take into account C.S.Lewis' times. Victorian England, when he was born, was a country which at considerable cost to its citizenry had acquired dominion over the exotic realm of India, and had previously confronted the Russians, in alliance with the Ottoman Turks in the Crimean War. Only to find that the Ottoman Turks were UK's enemies at Gallipoli and elsewhere, when C.S.Lewis served his country in WW1. By WW1, the Turks ran a decrepit and corrupt empire, one of those Imperial powers which collapsed after 1918. By that time, the Western World treated their womenfolk somewhat better than their Ottoman counterparts.

C.S.Lewis, born in Belfast, might have known about the depredations of Arabian slavetraders along Irish coasts, notably in Cork. Such slave traders also prowled African shores, along the North African Barbary Coast, and from Zanzibar to Mombasa and beyond, especially when they found a market for their wares in the New World. With a lot of help from even British pirates, such as Captain Ward, I might add. And it was also true that European slaves were highly prized in the Middle East and elsewhere for their fair skin. Also that it wasn't until after C.S.Lewis' death that Saudi Arabia renounced slavery, in 1965.

Archenland might represent a somewhat idyllic view of European resistance against invading hordes, and yes, I am thinking of the Battle of Vienna on 11-12th September, 1683, and an earlier siege in 1529. But I disagree that attitudes towards Arabic culture won't change should their circumstances change as well, by the time HHB is filmed. Who remembers when slavery was abolished in all Arabic-speaking territories, after all? And when people like to complain about racism etc in HHB, who remembers the Battle of Vienna or the fate of the Irish at other than English hands?

I brought that up because wagga had said that traffic in tashbaan is like traffic in the developed world, and I was counter-arguing the point. A rather minor point that the two of us ended up drawing out into a lengthy discussion of arab culture.

I am reminded of Tashbaan's traffic conditions any time I have ever been targeted by someone else's road rage eg because the angle of the morning sun was blinding me at a roundabout. Sorry also for long posts and for my own part in discussing Arab culture, if that is a problem. But to paraphrase a former Aussie PM, I think this is the debate we have to have if HHB is to be filmed at all. Graymouser also said on April 3rd: "Even wthout lines like the "cursed but fair barbarians" this is going to be a tough sell against an organised campaign screaming about 'racism' and 'imperialism'." And yes, that is something we need to look at.

But I disagree that attitudes towards Arabic culture won't change should their circumstances change as well, by the time HHB is filmed. Who remembers when slavery was abolished in all Arabic-speaking territories, after all? And when people like to complain about racism etc in HHB, who remembers the Battle of Vienna or the fate of the Irish at other than English hands?

But people do remember Aladdin and Sinbad. Consequently, if the Calormenes and Archenlanders are portrayed exactly the way they are in the book, many people will automatically see the connection to Arab culture, and will pan the film as Anti-Arab. Or are you saying that the revolutions could turn public opinion against Arabs to the point that no one cares if HHB is anti-Arab?

I guess what I was kinda trying to go after was that if a democracy was in place there wouldn't be as much of a need for escorts and whatnot

Now that's probably true. If the various revolutions are successful, they could lead to a complete abolishment of classism and aristocratic oppression, in those countries that have it. Of course, they are likely to bring about a whole new type of oppression. In most of the Arab countries that are dealing with this turmoil, the largest free political factions, and the muscle behind the revolutions, are Muslim conservatives with a view to turning their respective countries into Islamic states. We're likely to see a dramatic decline in women's rights across the middle east, similar to what we currently see in Iran.

But people do remember Aladdin and Sinbad. Consequently, if the Calormenes and Archenlanders are portrayed exactly the way they are in the book, many people will automatically see the connection to Arab culture, and will pan the film as Anti-Arab. Or are you saying that the revolutions could turn public opinion against Arabs to the point that no one cares if HHB is anti-Arab?

The only reason why HHB is considered Anti-Arab, in particular, is because in some parts of the Middle East, particularly around the Gulf, as you have noted, the cap still fits. You say the Sabagh on Kuwaiti streets shove less important people out of the way - no wonder the people are revolting. And like the Wahhabist Saudis, maybe the Sabagh still practise polygamy and forced arranged marriages, and have a reputation for mistreating foreign born employees, especially the non-European ones, like Indonesians or Filipinas, even though slavery has been abolished, even in their part of the globe.

If the democratic movements take into account these human rights abuses, HHB will no longer be automatically seen as Anti Arab, Anti-Indian, Anti Turkish or Anti anything that is currently going on, since that sort of behaviour remains in the past, along with the legendary and exotic world of Sinbad, Aladdin (from Turkic Khwarezm (sp), Rustem & Sohrab, and Scherharazade (sp). All the more so, since although there are direct references to Turkish delight, and Turkish names are used in Narnia, there is nothing apart from human rights abuses linking Calormen specifically to modern Arabic culture at all.

I agree that these revolutions are driven in some cases by conservatives who are unlikely to treat women well. If Iran is also involved, as some have claimed, the conservatism and other human rights violations will definitely linger, and there is a very real danger that the Calormenes will be seen, instead, as Anti Persian, even though Iran no longer has Shahs, Zoroastrians, or any truck with other Tashbaan reminders like Tash.

After all, I didn't readily pick up any anti Arab bias when I originally read HHB, back in the late 1950's, though I did pick up on the Communist reference in LB. (i.e. The dwarves are for the dwarves.) I did of course know then about the Turks and Gallipoli because of Anzac Day, next Monday.

It has been mentioned several times that it needs to be shown that it's the leaders who are evil and the lower classes don't have any choice about these matters. Maybe we could have various characters provide help throughout the story who aren't in the book? For instance, Shasta could get some sort of cut while learning to ride Bree, and while visiting town someone bandages him. It just came to me that, while following Anradin, Rabadash, etc. , that we could also follow a soldier who follows them who shows mercy in a critical part of the battle of Anvard. Just some ideas.

What about Aravis brother? He was supposed to be dead, but it would be neat to have him help Aravis escape. It could even be adapted so that Aravis father is being forced to let her marry Ahoshta, and that would get rid of the extra "wicked stepmother" character too.

On a different note, some added suspense could be that Anradin is closing in on Shasta in Tashbaan and just as he is about to nab him, Shasta is whisked of by the Narnians. Also, what about combining the characters of Ahoshta and Anradin?

Also, what about combining the characters of Ahoshta and Anradin?

That could work, I wouldn't mind.

^^ Oh, that's totally do-able. It would also cut down on movie time! Hm. But it would also would take away the first time we see Ahoshta...

One of the main themes that they need to work into the movie is the theme of the characters switching their personalities. By the end of the book, the four main characters are the opposite of what they were in the beginning.
Shasta starts out as a "rude common little boy" with no manners or good upbringing. He really doesn't know how to behave which isn't really his fault because obviously Arsheesh wasn't the best parent. Shasta was used to being on his own and didn't really want to rely on anyone else, he didn't even want to eat Aravis's food when they first met! By the end of it, he learns to trust others and starts to become a refined prince.
Bree was very proud and obviously was humbled, hence the chapter "How Bree Became a Wiser Horse". He said he followed Aslan, but that was because he was a Narnian and didn't really understand what that meant. He had to learn to be humble and that he wasn't any more special than any other talking horse.
Aravis was also very proud and stuck up at the beginning and thought herself better than anyone lower than her. By the end, when she realized how it feels to be abused when Aslan claws her, she says to Cor, "But I did change before I knew you were a prince". She learns that not everything is about her.
Hwin is so shy in the beginning she barely says anything to Bree at first and joins in the conversation rarely. Throughout the book, she becomes more open and comes up with the winning suggestion of going right through Tashbaan. By the end she walks right up to Aslan and basically worships him and says "I'd rather be eaten by you than fed by anyone else". She becomes brave and changes from the timid horse she was before.
In VDT, they haven't really gotten the themes of the book. I really want them to get this right to show as Lewis summarized, "the conversion of a heathen". It is such a great spiritual message as well.

It has been mentioned several times that it needs to be shown that it's the leaders who are evil and the lower classes don't have any choice about these matters. Maybe we could have various characters provide help throughout the story who aren't in the book? For instance, Shasta could get some sort of cut while learning to ride Bree, and while visiting town someone bandages him. It just came to me that, while following Anradin, Rabadash, etc. , that we could also follow a soldier who follows them who shows mercy in a critical part of the battle of Anvard. Just some ideas.

I think that all of those suggestions could work really well - I especially like the one about the soldier showing mercy in battle. Lots of little things like that are what will make or break this film.
That being said, I do hope that if this movie gets made, the filmmakers will exercise a bit of subtlety. (With the current ones, I know that's a big ask!) I think I would cringe if Susan or Edmund were to say, "You know, the people of Calormen aren't that bad, it's really the leaders that give it it's bad reputation." That should be evident throughout the film without characters actually having to voice it.

And yes I agree. It is the leaders, not the ordinary people who should be shown as bad. Though I thought Lazaraleen was magnificent in helping Aravis and the horses to get through Tashbaan. There are plenty in the real world that would not have done nearly as well, whatever their position.

There are also other ways of showing that the Calormenes are not evil. I like the idea of how Aravis and friends were helped. There is a bit from the book where that might have been possible, when Shasta had to go foraging for supplies so they could get through Tashbaan. He had to buy peasant clothes for Aravis, but surely she could have received help from kind Calormenes if she needed rope for some reasons, especially as she was still dressed as a young Tarkaan.

Then there is Queen Susan. She likes Rabadash who is quite the Casanova up in Cair Paravel. What is it that turns her against him? It might not have been his attitude to her, though that would be definitely part of it. What about how she sees him treating animals or servants etc in Tashbaan? Wouldn't that be a real factor in her change of heart, especially if she really was Queen Susan the Gentle?

Then there is Queen Susan. She likes Rabadash who is quite the Casanova up in Cair Paravel. What is it that turns her against him? It might not have been his attitude to her, though that would be definitely part of it. What about how she sees him treating animals or servants etc in Tashbaan? Wouldn't that be a real factor in her change of heart, especially if she really was Queen Susan the Gentle?

I like this idea. This brings up another point, when will the Narnians (other than Bree and Hwin) be seen first in the film? In the books it's in Tashbaan, but wouldn't it make sense to let the audience know ahead of time that the king and queen they see are Edmund and Susan? Even if they use the same actors, they might need a little help. Also, showing what's happening with them will save talking time later.

I like the idea of the friendly Calormenes, but I think that a reason Lewis did not include that may have been because the Calormenes were basically taught not to like Narnians, as I interpret it. That doesn't mean they all hate Narnians, it just means they were probably given reasons to dislike them. Like when there was still slavery. The slave owners probably didn't completely understand that what they were doing was bad because they had always been taught that black people should be slaves and were less important. We know that's not true, but that was the mindset then like the almost anti-Narnia mindset in Calormen.