We are trying to think of a way that the family resemblance between Shasta and Corin is strong enough to fool Edmund, to make either twin conspicuous even in a Calormene crowd, and for Anradin to notice there is no relationship between Shasta and Arsheesh without being racist.

I expect though for the sake of the film, should it ever happen, they will have Anradin being in on the original kidnapping of Shasta, having a fair idea who Shasta is, and wanting to acquire him for his own ends.

We are trying to think of a way that the family resemblance between Shasta and Corin is strong enough to fool Edmund, to make either twin conspicuous even in a Calormene crowd, and for Anradin to notice there is no relationship between Shasta and Arsheesh without being racist.

I expect though for the sake of the film, should it ever happen, they will have Anradin being in on the original kidnapping of Shasta, having a fair idea who Shasta is, and wanting to acquire him for his own ends.

Interesting idea. They could expand the story where Anradin, after discovering Bree's ruse, chases after them through large parts of the story.

Up to when Shasta and Bree meet up with Aravis and Hwin, that is exactly what is expected to happen. Shasta worried a lot about being taken for a horse thief. Furthermore, even after that moment, the challenge for all of them is to get through Tashbaan without being noticed. We saw how that worked out. Fortunately without either Anradin or Rabadash being aware of the party being in Tashbaan.

Anradin was going north to Tashbaan when he stopped at Arsheesh's cottage. Why exactly? Was it to be Rabadash's best man? Were Ahoshta, Anradin and Rabadash a long time in cahoots about the best way to overcome Anvard and Archenland?

Anradin was also one of Rabadash's trusted lieutenants at the siege of Anvard. Did he also accompany Rabadash to visit Susan at Cair Paravel? And just where did Rabadash get the idea of going through Anvard to get Susan back?

How is it racist for one people to have darker skin than another? That's just the way things are, and it doesn't mean that anyone is better than anyone else.

I love your addition to the plot wagga; (I hope you don't mind my calling you that) it makes so much sense, and it does not change the plot itself at all! It just adds more depth and suspense.

It's not racist because the Calormenes exist and have darker skin, it's considered racist because they have darker skin, and the story vilifies them. Although, personally I saw it more as ethnocentric bigotry rather than racism, but plenty of people use the terms interchangeably.

Precisely, Anhun. Though to be fair to C.S.Lewis, in 1953 when he wrote this book, the world was a much different place. This was the aftermath to WW2, when the USSR and America were in rivalry in the Cold War, and when the seeds for some of today's political problems were sown. It is all too easy to be an ethnocentric bigot and to vilify people of a different culture when at war with them.

My question is, would reversing the Calormenes' skin tones to lighter and the Narnians'/Archenlanders' skin tones to darker change anything? Mostly I think not. The Calormenes with that sort of culture and with the same sorts of leaders would be vilified whatever their skin tones, if comparing their culture and belief system, ie ethnocentric bigotry, is really the problem. In that case racism and ethocentric bigotry cannot be interchangeable, much as it may be seen that way.

Surely the Narnians and Archenlanders with their greater personal freedoms, differing attitudes and their post White Witch ethical values would be glorified at the Calormenes' expense, just the same, so that C.S.Lewis could make the same points about individual rights and responsibilities under government laws. And I do really think it is the matter of the Calormene leadership that is really under discussion, more than the ordinary people who suffered just as much from that style of government.

However, I do wonder if the literati who saw C.S.Lewis as being racist for Anradin etc talking about the beautiful, fair Northern barbarians, would still be just as offended or unoffended that the Calormenes, ie Rabadash, Ahoshta and the Tisroc as well as Anradin, still vilified the Narnians/Archenlanders as barbarians, even if the Northerners were considered beautiful and dark rather than beautiful and fair.

In my opinion an escaped slave or refugee isn't expected to have good things to say about what that person has escaped from in their country of origin. Nor are opposing forces likely to say good things about each other.

Thanks Anhun and Wagga for summing it up for me. I see what you mean. It's too bad that the different forms of media nowadays have to be so careful not to offend anyone, even when there isn't much of a reason to take offense.

Would it work to make the Calormans a mix of different cultures so that no one culture is singled out?

I already thought that the Calormenes were a good mix of different cultures. For a start it is the sort of place which is run by an overindulged absolute ruler, whose merest whim is law. For another, the point of Calormen is that it is run by the sorts of ideas that are contrary to the values, beliefs and ethics taught in Narnia.

The absolute ruler expects to live forever. Something like the deification of Roman emperors pre Christianity, or pre WW2 Japanese veneration of Hirohito, who, himself, accepted his humanity. Anhun's idea of using Ancient Etruria is a good one, but according to their artists, the Etruscans were rather nice to and appreciative of their women, Tarquin Superbus aside.

The absolute ruler has nineteen other sons so can dispense with Rabadash if necessary. To have as many as nineteen other sons, the Tisroc would have to have more than one wife. Supreme monarchs around the world have often had harems, whether Anna Leonowen's King of Siam or whether the Ottoman Sultanate that ruled from Istanbul's Topkapi Palace until 1918.

It is suggested that child marriage is practised in Calormen. But such marriages are arranged in many parts of the world whether in Africa, including Christian Ethiopia, Eurasia, the Arabian peninsula, the Indian Subcontinent, South East Asia and elsewhere. Often they are a mark of poor countries where industrialisation and urbanisation haven't caught on. Historically such marriages were also contracted in UK and in Europe, especially among Royalty, so though it is frowned on in Western society today, I don't think you can sheet this idea home to any particular culture. Luckily in Calormen they at least wait until Aravis is of high school age before subjecting her to such a practice.

Ottoman Turkey is referenced by the fascination of Turkish delight, a confection that has caught on in most parts of the world, especially due to the fame of LWW. Sherbet is also mentioned as a Calormene food and other delights that would be seen as luxurious by the residents of War-torn Europe. Their exotic nature is what makes them appealing to many.

The style of coinage, weaponry and clothing in Calormen do suggest an Eastern or non-European sort of civilization. Scimitars have been used anywhere in the world from North Africa right across the Indian subcontinent to Malaya where they use something called a kris. The style of Calomene clothes are still worn to a greater or lesser extent everywhere from Saharan Africa right across the Middle East and through to the Philippines and Indonesia. Turbans and long robes aren't confined to a particular belief system or nationality. They can be worn not only by Muslims, but also Sikhs, Hindus, Parsees, practitioners of Taoism, Buddhism, Jainism and others.

The sort of poetry espoused by Calormen suggests Communism more than anything else, since it is intended to give wise advice rather than to entertain and uplift. The chief god of the Calormenes is a multi-armed bird-headed god called Tash, a vague and much nastier cross between the multi-armed Hindu God of Destruction, Shiva, and some bird-headed Ancient Egyptian, or more likely, Ancient Canaanite God. And if Tash is a Turkish or Persian name, so is Aslan.

Calormene traffic rules dictate that less important people have to get out of the way of more important people. This attitude is not confined to one particular type of nationality or culture, even in America or Australia. I don't know why one particular culture is singled out by C.S.Lewis' critics as being vilified.

Calormene traffic rules dictate that less important people have to get out of the way of more important people. This attitude is not confined to one particular type of nationality or culture, even in America or Australia.

I'm not sure what part of America you've been to, but any place I've been a traffic light is a traffic light and a sign is a sign. I suppose a more important person might be able to talk their way out of a minor traffic violation, but in general, celebrities have to follow the same rules as everyone else. Political leaders are, if anything, even more accountable.

On the other hand, in Kuwait, traffic works the exact same way that it works in Tashbaan. If one of the Sabaghs is on the road with an intent to get somewhere fast, everyone else better get out of the way.

I haven't been to America, only seen it on TV. They make TV shows my husband likes to watch about dumb drivers and their antics, whatever the rules might be, whichever side of the road you drive on, and whatever the country. And yes, these shows do tend to pick Australian and American drivers mostly. And I agree that I was a bit sarcastic about the sort of drivers one sees every day, everywhere, who think they are the most important people on the road, even though they aren't police, ambulances or fire engines. It seems that everyone else had better get out of their way if possible.

I don't know who the Sabaghs of Kuwait are. Given that there aren't cars in Tashbaan, that slave power seems to be the rule of thumb, rather than horsepower, and that that everyone else other than important Tarkaans etc has to walk, despite the congestion, Tashbaan might even seem to be preferable, traffic wise.

I still think that Calormen is the sort of place where money talks, where slavery is rife and where the rights of the weaker members of society are disregarded. But as a microcosm of the sorts of social attitudes found worldwide, I doubt it vilifies any particular sort of Earthly culture. The reality might be much worse.

If you look at specific elements of Calormene culture, yes, most of them can be found anywhere. That's true of most cultural elements. However, if you look at the culture as a whole, as well as the Pauline Baynes illustrations it most closely resembles Arab and Indian culture.

I would agree that the aspects of Calormene culture that make it truly repulsive are universal aspects of feudal/despotic civilizations around the world and throughout the history, irrespective of race, geography or religion. But people with a limited understanding of history are unlikely to understand that.

As for the Sabaghs, they are the ruling family of Kuwait. Their whim is law. Their cars are preceded by guard vans that ram people of lesser importance off the road if they don't give way of their own accord, sort of like the slaves of the high ranking officials in Tashbaan, pushing the hoi polloi out of the way. In general, the Gulf Arab countries are like that, everything is run on "wasta" or influence. The rest of the Arab world is very different though.

Well, I already know only a little about the Gulf States because of a few work colleagues who have transferred to places like Dubai. I'm not sure whether your definition of the Gulf States also includes Yemen and Saudi Arabia, where it is the clerics who sometimes wear turbans. Other males seem to favour red and white checked head coverings held in place by single and double rope thingummies, a bit like tiaras.

From my reading, it also seems that the Narnian, and especially the Calormene culture, owes quite a bit to the old pre-WW1 Ottoman Turkish culture, rather than Arabian or Indian. The Ottoman Empire, which ruled from Iraq in the East to the Balkans in Europe, including the Gulf States, was run just like what you say the Gulf states are now, by all accounts, until under Kemal Ataturk, Turkey was reformed to be the place it is today. It isn't just the scimitars or the turbans, it is also Aravis' slave-girl outfit, and the linguistic roots of the names of chief Narnian characters, etc which suggests the Ottoman Empire, in particular.

Aslan, according to this article, is the Turkish word for "lion". It is also a first name in the Caucasus and in other nearby, Turkic-speaking, Eurasian areas. By contrast, the word "Tash" is derived from the Turkish root word for "stone". The only references to Shasta as a name were all to do with California in USA, but according to this article, the term for the Tisroc is suggested by this reference:

The word Tisroc may owe something to Nisroch, the name given in the Bible to a deity of Assyria, who also appears as a demon in Paradise Lost.

Now this is interesting. The Assyrians were demonised by the Bible, to be sure. And what the Ancient Assyrians had to say about themselves backed up the Bible account 150%. But the descendants of the Assyrians lived on as Samaritans, and in Iraq and elsewhere in the world they also have their own Christian churches. Even Jonah reports their repentance in the Biblical book of that name.

I agree with you that people do draw Arabian and Indian comparisons and that the illustrations do suggest that. But I doubt these comparisons would really pan out under examination.

Just a random question in terms of middle eastern cultures and HHB:
Do you think that with all of the uprisings for democracy in arab countries going on now and the rate that it's taking for these films to be made, old arab traditions (i.e. the clearing the road thing from earlier) will no longer be a problem/seen as offensive??

Just a random question in terms of middle eastern cultures and HHB:
Do you think that with all of the uprisings for democracy in arab countries going on now and the rate that it's taking for these films to be made, old arab traditions (i.e. the clearing the road thing from earlier) will no longer be a problem/seen as offensive??

I think it's a possibility, depends on how many of the uprisings succeed. But regardless of the culture, skin pigmentation may still be an issue.

Just a random question in terms of middle eastern cultures and HHB:
Do you think that with all of the uprisings for democracy in arab countries going on now and the rate that it's taking for these films to be made, old arab traditions (i.e. the clearing the road thing from earlier) will no longer be a problem/seen as offensive??

Whew! That's a question with a multi-part answer.

1st of all, the Calormenes, particularly in the way they dress, are really more like medieval arabs than modern arabs. Just as the Archenlanders are more like medieval Europeans. The fact that Euros no longer walk around in tunics and chain mail (most of them anyway ) does not make it any less clear that the superiority of the Archenlanders is intended to represent a general European supremacy. So no, even if the revolutions were to somehow result in a radical change in Arab culture, it would not change Arab cultural history, and would not in any way weaken the association between Calormenes and arabs.

2nd of all, the clearing of the road is more a characteristic of various (though not all) feudal societies, rather than an arab tradition. In terms of individual rights and freedoms, Medieval Europe was more like Calormen than Lewis would have wanted to admit. In the middle east, you only see that sort of thing in the gulf states, which have a very strong sense of classist rule. In other parts of the arab world that I've been to: Egypt, Palestine, and Iraq, it's not anything like that, and hasn't been anytime in recent memory, if ever. I brought that up because wagga had said that traffic in tashbaan is like traffic in the developed world, and I was counter-arguing the point. A rather minor point that the two of us ended up drawing out into a lengthy discussion of arab culture.

3rdly, the revolutions are unlikely to have the cultural effect that you seem to think they'll have, unless I misinterpret your question. I might go over that in more length when my fingers aren't tired. We'll see.