Posted by: @courtenay

Er, yeah, thanks for mansplaining feminism to me. I do have a university degree in history — not specifically in women's / gender studies, but the varied (and often conflicting) arguments that come under the heading of "feminism" did come into it quite a lot...

I'm very sorry you felt like I was being condescending. But your remarks really did come across to me like you were viewing it from a very "old school" kind of feminism, much like the kind I was familiar with growing up, not more modern concerns. 

Posted by: @courtenay

r. Some modern feminists do argue that women are shamed for liking stereotypically feminine things, but it would be hard to say whether or not that is currently a majority view among the huge variety of people who call themselves feminists. As far as I've seen, most of the attacks on Lewis himself over Susan's fate stem from the claim that he was essentially a misogynist — that he was so disgusted by the thought of little girls growing up and becoming mature, and liking lipstick and boys and so on, that his one main character who does that is promptly excluded from heaven. It's actually a knee-jerk reaction — any negative portrayal of a female character, especially by an ageing male Christian author, obviously means the said author hates women. This of course isn't at all sustained by a deep and careful reading of the series as a whole, which a good scholar (feminist or otherwise) ought to do before jumping to conclusions.

Well, I don't particularly want to discuss the topic of gender in the books' since, like I said, I think the extent to which gender is seen as a theme in them is overblown. But your comments do give me a great opportunity to bring up something I've noticed. Hopefully, the moderators will be OK with me making one somewhat off topic post here.  

Half of the criticism I hear that the Narnia books are sexist amounts to the accusation that they vilify women who are "unfeminine" like Jadis and positively portray women are "feminine" like Lucy and Susan. The other half amounts to the accusation that they vilify women who are "feminine" like the Lady of the Green Kirtle and Susan and positively portray women like Jill, Lucy and Aravis who are "unfeminine." These two accusations totally contradict each other (and note that Lucy can be categorized both ways) so at least half of them are clearly wrong IMO.  

Posted by: @coracle

I could cope with Greta doing HHB. Not sure what else I'd trust her with.

On an old topic about Greta Gerwig directing, I think I mentioned that I could see her doing The Horse and his Boy because it's a character driven story, which seems to be kind of her thing. I could also kind of see her doing The Magician's Nephew because she might be attracted to the personal and psychological drama of Digory dealing with his mother's approaching death. However, any director who does MN has to be good with music, given that it features Aslan's Song and the soundtrack for Gerwig's Little Women (by Alexandre Desplat) kind of let the movie down IMO. 

Keep in mind though that The Horse and his Boy and The Magician's Nephew are my favorite Narnia books and it might just be that I'm desperate for more adaptations of them.  

Before you know it, we'll be hearing announcements of what two Narnia films it will be, the release date, and who will the composer be.

As with Greta Gerwig, regardless of what two Narnia films she will write and direct, it will be interesting to see what direction she will take those two movies in. There are actually a couple of reliefs about the new movie adaptations-

1. The White Witch won't keep coming back. I kind of saw what Walden was trying to do with her PC. When I saw her in the trailer for VDT, I kind of got worried that she was going to be in all seven, possibly casting Tilda Swinton as the Lady of the Green Kirtle in SC, her backstory in MN, and doing her instead of Tash in HHB and LB. It will be a relief that the new adaptation won't do that. If Greta Gerwig does MN and LWW, I don't want to see the White Witch after LWW! 

2. The new film or series adaptation would be more character driven than a "huge epic fantasy blockbuster." Walden turned the plot in VDT about "We need to find the seven swords to fight the Green Mist that wishes to steal light from this world!" That's not what VDT is about! If Greta Gerwig does HHB, the plot should be focused on Shasta taking his journey to Narnia and North to make a discovery about himself instead of having to save Narnia and Archenland from the invading Calormenes with a huge epic battle at the end!

Posted by: @rose

After eight months, the rumor appears to be true!

8 months..? Where has the time gone?

My feelings regarding Gerwig haven't changed much in the past 8 months. I think she adds a level of credibility and genuine intrigue to the series that it's sorely lacked. Now that's this news is more-or-less confirmed, I shall be watching her previous works to get a better feel for her directorial sensibilities.

But overall, I'm just excited to anticipate another Narnia project here with you all 🤗 

Posted by: @impending-doom

I think she adds a level of credibility and genuine intrigue to the series that it's sorely lacked.

She'll also have her pick of talent, too. She's been nominated for multiple Oscars and I doubt there are many actors that wouldn't jump at the chance to work with her!

Something else that's interesting about The New Yorker article is the fact that the writer said she was attached to write and direct "at least" two films. That makes it sound like there's a fighting chance she'll do more than that, and that Netflix's plans for Narnia extend — at least tentatively — beyond two films. Honestly, considering that Netflix has a tendency to unceremoniously cancel series after one season, it's nice to hear that their initial plans for Narnia involve multiple productions.

I can't believe this day has arrived that we finally have major news on a new Narnia project- I still remember the day the moratorium was announced when I was still a kid, dismayed that I will probably be in college by time a new project has started. Well, add a few more years to that and a marriage and here I am, ha ha.

That said, I can't comment on the quality of Greta Gerwig's work since I haven't seen any of it. Lots of people in the general public/social media seem particularly enthusiastic about it from my experience though. It could just be from hype for the Barbie movie, but a pattern I've observed is that she has some great potential to center around the experiences of childhood, growing up, etc. 

On another note, I do appreciate that she has some background in the Christian religion as there are many motifs and direct allegories in the series. No say in how well Netflix will wish to portray these to the general public, but there have been plenty of successful movies with religion as a forefront in recent years (Silence, Hacksaw Ridge). 

Posted by: @col-klink

Half of the criticism I hear that the Narnia books are sexist amounts to the accusation that they vilify women who are "unfeminine" like Jadis and positively portray women are "feminine" like Lucy and Susan. The other half amounts to the accusation that they vilify women who are "feminine" like the Lady of the Green Kirtle and Susan and positively portray women like Jill, Lucy and Aravis who are "unfeminine." These two accusations totally contradict each other (and note that Lucy can be categorized both ways) so at least half of them are clearly wrong IMO.  

Exactly, as I was saying — so many ideas that are put forward as "feminism" actually contradict each other! Or at least are not fully compatible with each other, or problematic on a deeper level. But that's all getting way off topic.

One thing about Susan — and maybe this is getting off topic too and could be continued in one of the threads we already have about her — is that if you read the stories carefully, it's not actually her "femininity" that Lewis is portraying as a problem. It's the fact that she has, as a young adult, become so fixated with worldly matters and enjoyments, and with a particular very stereotyped view of what sort of person she should be, that she's lost sight of (or rejected) the deeper matters of what we might call her spiritual well-being, her inner growth in grace as a follower of Aslan / Christ. (Implicitly, it's Christianity itself that she's rejecting as "all those funny games we used to play when we were children" — which, interestingly, is also what the Green Witch in SC, through her hypnotic magic, tries to persuade our heroes about Narnia and Aslan.)

There's enough evidence elsewhere in the books to show that Lewis wasn't against girls liking nice clothes and enjoying social occasions; the problem is when someone becomes so obsessed with these or other such earthly things that they neglect or reject the things we should be seeking first (as in the Sermon on the Mount — Matt. 6:31-33). Lewis could just as well have made the same point in a different way with Susan or even with another character. Perhaps Susan (in a slightly more modern version!) could have become a career woman who ends up so consumed by pride and personal ambition that she throws away everything else (and perhaps back-stabs and tramples over other people) in her efforts to get to the top of her profession. Or one of the male characters (perhaps Peter) could have grown up to make that same mistake, or to become obsessed with chasing girls, or with accumulating material riches, or...

Any of those things would of course make it a different story — I'm not suggesting that Gerwig or any other future directors ought to rewrite Susan or Peter or any other character like that! — but my point is that what Lewis is critiquing isn't really Susan's femininity at all. It's the choices she makes and the things she chooses to put first in her life, to the point where the earthly matters totally crowd out the heavenly ones.

That's a broader theme that runs throughout all the Chronicles, really (some other examples are Edmund's choices in LWW, or the contrast between Aravis and Lasaraleen in HHB), and it's something that doesn't need to be couched specifically in religious terms — it's a universal concern and something that human beings always need reminding of, however it's done. So I would hope Gerwig will be perceptive enough to pick that up and bring it out, in whatever ways she portrays Susan and any of the other characters. There are really important lessons and messages in the Chronicles that are relevant to everyone, today as much as when the books were written, and they shouldn't get buried by unneeded controversies over the gender of the characters involved!

Posted by: @rillianix

While, obviously, she is initially seen as spoiled, bratty, and self-obsessed as the character is written, Gerwig and through Pugh's performance, we're allowed something more than that without altering who the character is...

I actually thought Gerwig's writing for the character of Amy March was great but Florence Pugh was OK at best in the role, but that's another topic.

Posted by: @louloudi-the-centaur

I can't believe this day has arrived that we finally have major news on a new Narnia project- I still remember the day the moratorium was announced when I was still a kid, dismayed that I will probably be in college by time a new project has started. Well, add a few more years to that and a marriage and here I am, ha ha.

What??? Congratulations!!

I honestly can't believe it will probably be fifteen years of waiting by the time we finally get a new movie, if this Gerwig project moves ahead. Five more years and it would be as long as Rilian was trapped in Underland.

Posted by: @louloudi-the-centaur

On another note, I do appreciate that she has some background in the Christian religion as there are many motifs and direct allegories in the series. No say in how well Netflix will wish to portray these to the general public, but there have been plenty of successful movies with religion as a forefront in recent years (Silence, Hacksaw Ridge). 

This is a comfort to me, too. Apathy and antipathy towards religion is becoming a lot more commonplace nowadays, and just knowing that the writer/director has very positive things to say about growing up in a Unitarian Universalist congregation and going to a Catholic high school makes me a lot more hopeful for these adaptations.

Posted by: @col-klink

You know, we've talked about which books these two new movies are going to based on, but we haven't discussed whether they might be original stories that take place in the world of Narnia. I would hate that, but, alas, the press release is vague enough that the possibility sounds like it's still on the table. 

That's possible, but I think it's unlikely — Netflix doesn't have a lot of IP with big name recognition, and I can't imagine them not wanting the buzz of adapting one of the books.

Something that has crossed my mind, though, is that her adaptations may be wildly different than what we expect. Her version of Little Women, with the way it hops back and forth through time, was a massive departure from previous adaptations of that book. So we could end up seeing something that makes book purists' heads explode. (To be fair, though, Narnia as a book series is not super cohesive or chronological to begin with!)

Posted by: @icarus

Plus, with Netflix still chasing that elusive Best Picture Oscar after a couple of close races, this hire potentially signals to me that they might actually see Narnia as the vehicle to deliver that.

Never would I have ever thought Netflix was aiming for an Oscar with Narnia. Not saying you're wrong, but my thoughts were more, they spent an insane amount of money on the rights to do Narnia, so they'd better do their best to recoup their costs, and a big-name director is one way to go at it.

Posted by: @rose

She'll also have her pick of talent, too. She's been nominated for multiple Oscars and I doubt there are many actors that wouldn't jump at the chance to work with her!

For better or for worse.... I personally prefer lesser known actors/actresses myself. 

Posted by: @fantasia

Posted by: @icarus

Plus, with Netflix still chasing that elusive Best Picture Oscar after a couple of close races, this hire potentially signals to me that they might actually see Narnia as the vehicle to deliver that.

Never would I have ever thought Netflix was aiming for an Oscar with Narnia. Not saying you're wrong, but my thoughts were more, they spent an insane amount of money on the rights to do Narnia, so they'd better do their best to recoup their costs, and a big-name director is one way to go at it.

Hyperbole on my part for sure, but also Netflix have been so desperate to establish themselves as a major player in the Hollywood scene by winning that best picture Oscar for a number of years now... And now they've gone and hired the hottest director in the game, the literal talk of the town, and someone that everyone has on their 2024 Oscar buzz watchlists.

You don't hire someone like that without at least part of your mind being on the big prize.

I'll say this, if Greta can even be in the conversation for Best Picture and Best Director with an adaptation of Barbie, then why wouldn't something like Narnia also be possible to elevate to those heights?

Posted by: @rose

Posted by: @rose

She'll also have her pick of talent, too. She's been nominated for multiple Oscars and I doubt there are many actors that wouldn't jump at the chance to work with her!

For better or for worse.... I personally prefer lesser known actors/actresses myself. 

OK, I've already written about this in Spare Oom, but not every Narniawebber reads that or if they do, I doubt they look at every topic. I adore Greta Gerwig's screenplay for her Little Women, but I was rather meh on the casting. No one was terrible or anything, but very few actors stood out as inspired choices. I feel like a lot of them (Saoirse Ronan, Florence Pugh, Emma Watson, Timothee Chalmet) were cast because members of the movie's target audience were likely to follow them on Twitter, not because they were the best options. (To be fair, the source material is old, and it might have been hard to market an adaptation to young people otherwise.) It was frustrating to me since I'd read the screenplay, which was put up for awards consideration online, and was prepared to love the film. That's why I don't have the faith that some do that Gerwig will put artistry over marketability.  

Narnia movie news at last! 😀 

I still don't have much of an opinion on Greta Gerwig as a director because I haven't seen any of her movies, but upon hearing the news today I checked out Little Women and Ladybird from the library, and I will watch them soon. It brought back old memories because I remember watching Stardust shortly after Ben Barnes was cast as Prince Caspian. 

Like @impending-doom, I'm just excited to be anticipating another Narnia adaptation with my fellow NarniaWebbers! 🥂 

Greta Gerwig sure has a lot of challenges ahead of her. There certainly some concerns.

The Chronicles of Narnia is a series of books that gives the readers glimpses of what happens in that world, not an overarching narrative like what Star Wars does. Walden tried to do that with The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, by creating the Green Mist to lead into the Lady of the Green Kirtle in The Silver Chair. That would be a relief, if Narnia was unique and not some overarching narrative.

Let's say the movie goes in chronological order. Would The Magician's Nephew foreshadow the prophecy in The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe? While The Horse And His Boy takes place during The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe, it counts as a glimpse of what is happening in the world of Narnia. Though after the Pevensies vanished out of Narnia, would it lead up to what happens in Prince Caspian? Then Prince Caspian, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, and The Silver Chair all feature Caspian as a character. He has a smaller role in The Silver Chair, but him about to die without an heir is a major part of the plot. Then of course, in The Silver Chair, Puddleglum suspects an enemy to land in Narnia at any time. Then would that be unfold in The Last Battle?

So it would be a relief if Greta Gerwig makes Narnia unique and special and not turn it into some overarching narrative.

Many people know that the previous production company lost the right to make The Silver Chair by a plan to present Jill as an action girl. 

But the thought has struck me that this would be a good option for Greta's first film. Not creating an action girl, but developing her as a confident and reliable partner on this quest.

I can see the flashbacks or time jumps, and maybe even the opening scene, partway into the story. (Obvious  point would be Jill meets Aslan? and then going back in time to show her miserable and probably anxious time at school, then escaping with Eustace). There is plenty of opportunity to use the now/then style of Little Women. 

But is it a good film for Netflix to begin with? With no Pevensies in the story, the only Narnian backstory for the children is Eustace's ship voyage, and this doesn't need to show much.