@queencrunchytheweeb 

It's a narrow path between two problems. As the bad guys, they can't be dark-skinned people.  There has to be something different in their looks, and a tanned or olive skin might work. But whatever is chosen could offend someone.

I actually never saw any complaints about casting European actors in the Logos Theatre version. But still if Netflix were to go this route some may still get offended as obviously Narnia Netflix would be exposed to a bigger audience compared to Logos Theatre.

Posted by: @queencrunchytheweeb

I actually never saw any complaints about casting European actors in the Logos Theatre version.

I'm actually guessing there wasn't a lot of "intent" behind the casting. A local theatre, even one with a budget like Logos, takes what actors it can get and probably doesn't bother too much about their looks. 

@col-klink Logos has a big core of staff, students and locals who've been involved for years. It's not the average community theatre.

I wonder when it comes to the Calormenes, if it would require a open casting call. People are kind of divided on how they should be portrayed in film.

The BBC Radio 4 and Focus on the Family Radio Theatre adaptations of The Horse And His Boy and The Last Battle had English actors to voice the Calormenes. I'm not sure if a movie will use English actors, though.

EDIT for a disclaimer: The first half of my post especially is a synthesis of all of the commentary I've absorbed since becoming aware of how Calorman reads to a modern audience. This commentary this post has been influenced by has included social media posts, articles, and opinion pieces from across the internet and here on Narniaweb (specifically discussion in this thread and in Are the Chronicles of Narnia Sexist and Racist?), as well as my own reflections and thoughts engaging with talking points. I am trying to track down specific sources of where I may have initially heard a talking point or critique and if I can find them, I will edit and credit them here.  

Greetings NarniaWeb,

This specific thread about Calormene costuming got me thinking, and I'd like to share some reflections, as well as ideas for how to address the issue of racial and cultural portrayals. Apologies for the very long post incoming. Would also be interested to hear others' thoughts and dialogue.  

With the speculations swirling around Netflix's adaptation since its announcement (and again with the recent rumors about Gerwig's vision), I found myself asking this question: When does fidelity to the source material harm an adaptation or alienate its audience? In asking this question, I don’t wish to stir up another round of culture war controversy; but rather, I‘d like to continue a discussion about why people are concerned about it and how we might find common ground. 

Let me start by saying that I do not think Lewis is a racist or terrible person for writing Calorman the way he did. The world of Narnia will always be near and dear to my heart, and it has formed me as a writer and person, and it has also done so for many others. I also believe, however, that we as fans of Lewis can acknowledge the context in which he wrote. I believe that we can engage with the limitations of his writings (as all writers have), the harm these stereotypes have done in the wider media and historical context, and the concerns posed by some minority-background Narnia fans without diminishing the merit of his work.

Having read people's concerns elsewhere online and discussion like this thread here, I see that the main issues of Calorman’s portrayal include: 

1. Calorman impacts the plot in a significant way and cannot be glossed over in an adaptation, unlike the Haradim or Easterlings of Middle Earth, which are given comparatively less description, have minor (often unnamed) roles in the movie adaptations, and have received less criticism as a result. 
2. Calormene culture is presented as the archenemy of Narnia, diametrically opposed narratively, culturally, and philosophically/eschatologically. Calormene society is portrayed negatively--built on oppression and social disparity, poor sanitation in Tashbaan, etc. Many Calormene characters are foolish or abusive, though there are a few positive portrayals (namely Aravis, Emeth, and Lasaraleen). All of the “good” Calormene characters admire Narnia and end up in Aslan's Country by choosing Narnia. Narnia is portrayed as culturally and morally superior to Calorman, as they have more honor, wisdom, and freedom. Two opposing cultures would not necessarily be an issue except…
3. Narnia is an amalgamation of cultural influences from across Western Europe, ranging from British and Norse to Roman and Grecian. Calorman is an amalgamation of cultural influences from the “Near East” (Arabian Peninsula, Ottoman-Turkish Empire, and South Asia) and vaguely “Oriental” (which in itself is a rather confusing term). All of our Narnian heroes are fair of complexion (and sometimes hair) while all of the Calormene characters are described as vaguely brown or dark of skin and hair. By pitting these two against each other and having the the Western Europe-coded culture come out triumphant and vindicated, it echoes colonialist narratives, implying that other, non-Western cultures are inherently inferior and backwards. This has the unfortunate correlation of light skin/European influence = good and darker skin/”Oriental” influence = bad, coupled with…
4. Some of the descriptions are stereotypical and identify Calormen as the “exotic Other,” reminding some readers of painful, real-life experiences of being seen as exotic (e.g. the description of “smelling of onions and garlic” echoes mockery or ostracization readers of minority backgrounds have experienced due to their school lunches). While Lewis probably did not intend for this to elicit this reaction…
   1. Edit: The full context of the quote and some great discussion of it by Narniawebbers can be found in this thread, the main reason why I included this point in my synthesis.
5. Narnia does not exist in a vacuum. It was written when many countries were beginning to or had already overthrown colonial rule, and those colonial overtones inform how readers engage with the text today. A Narnia adaptation of Calormene culture also sits in the broader media context of movies that have conflated stereotypes and generic cultural influences of the Middle East (and to some extent South Asia), such as the presence of the Arabian riff as shorthand for anything vaguely exotic and abundance of turbans, scimitars, and sand dunes in movies. Disney’s Aladdin, Lawrence of Arabia, and Raiders of the Lost Ark come to mind. Isolated, this would not necessarily be an issue, but the overwhelming majority of movies in the 20th century play off of these stereotypes, painting a very one-dimensional picture of rich, diverse cultures in media that receive comparatively less focus than, say, American history/culture or British history/culture. 

We cannot escape these issues in adaptation and interpretation. But perhaps we can work to mitigate them or be in dialogue with them by not dismissing the above concerns. I could see a production taking several tactics, with their strengths and weaknesses: 

1. Change the cultural references of Calormene society altogether.
   1. This would remove the root of the problem. It also, however, compromises faithfulness to the text, runs the risk of stereotyping another group, or, making it an entirely European-coded world (plus, I think some of the aesthetics and architecture of Calorman would be so striking to see on screen!). 
2. Add more nuance, showing negative sides of Narnian society and positive sides of Calormene society (namely its rich poetic tradition). 
   1. This would do wonders for the Calormene side of society and enrich the worldbuilding. It would, however, require changing the plot or writing extra material beyond the canon. It also might run the risk of making the Calormenes too sympathetic, thus making the stark ending of LB a harder sell from a narrative standpoint.
3. Multiracial or multiethnic casting for human Narnians, Archenlanders, and Calormenes
   1. This would widen the potential talent pool and could take the edge off the implicit European=good/Oriental=bad positioning of the worldbuilding. Multiethnic/multiracial casting also has the advantage of taking the focus off of colonial and orientalist overtones and shifting the focus to a values contrast of materialism, artiface, and indulgence without regard for others, such as @courtenay has suggested. It does run the risk of compromising the sources of Lewis's inspirations and his own historical and cultural context, with the potential to water down the markedly British influence in Narnia. 

I am personally partial to option 3, which has become more common in fantasy media and has also become the subject of much controversy (for example, see Rings of Power). While, I am not necessarily advocating for changing the ethnicities of the Pevensie siblings, Aravis, Emeth, Polly, Digory etc., I do think that Narnia is a place where this type of casting would be a better fit than fantasy worlds like Middle Earth, for several reasons: 

1. While aspects of Narnia itself are very British and Lewis wrote the work for a British audience, it was at no point meant to be a mythological history of how England came to be (something Tolkien considered for Middle Earth and which has presented issues with multiethnic casting there). Additionally, historical presence of race/ethnicity in Victorian or WWII era England does not necessarily dictate the existence of ethnicity in Narnia–a world that was influenced by Earth but was also separate and unlike Earth in many fantastical aspects. In fact, none of its settled areas (Narnia, Archenland, Calorman, Lone Islands) are 1:1 with specific Earth cultures. 
2. Multiple skin tones and phenotypical features within one culture or country can exist on Earth, and it can also be true in fantasy. Having a range of appearances could mitigate the cultural issues. Casting directors could even assign different phenotypes to different geographic areas within one region, thus avoiding issues of tokenism and accusations of “diversity for diversity’s sake” with no regard to the internal logic of worldbuilding (a criticism of Rings of Power's approach to casting). 
3. Taken as a whole, Narnia has a higher suspension of disbelief and less real-world logic. It is after all a land where Father Christmas can stand beside Roman gods, mentions of Jinn, and references to Norse mythology (a milieu that Tolkien sharply critiqued). Among such an amalgamation of cultural references, multiethnic casting may not stick out as much as some may be concerned about.
4. This type of casting could represent the global appeal of Narnia and further fuel the imagination and wonder–for everyone. Many people of non-European descent (including myself) did not notice the uncomfortable aspects of the books until we were older. We put ourselves in the story, ignoring descriptive or cultural limitations and tailoring that world to be a place where we too could be a King or Queen of Narnia. But film and the nature of adaptation into a visual medium is inherently limiting in certain ways--and one of those is deciding if the “good” Narnians or Archenlanders and likewise the “bad” Calormenes are all of one appearance or another. 

Lewis wrote Narnia for a British audience, so he included familiar British cultural touchstones in his work. However, Narnia also expanded its shores beyond Britain, transporting us into an entirely new, fantastical realm. Lewis explored how the mundane can suddenly turn magical, how even traitors can be redeemed and rule, and most importantly of all, how the joy of childhood must never be forgotten in favor of growing up too fast. Since its publication, Narnia and its wardrobe have become emblematic re-discovering the spark of wonder and entering a new reality (perhaps, even, a truer reality). These themes resonate with Narnia fans, and we find ourselves coming back again and again because of them. And while I don’t believe that “representation” is entirely necessary to enjoy a story, I do think there would be something special in seeing that anyone could step into the wardrobe, be a part of this grand adventure, and walk alongside the Not-Tame-but-Good Lion, too. 

-- Wanderer

Hi @wanderer — good to see you here again! I'm sorry your very thoughtful post has become a bit swamped by all the other talk that's going on about the recent casting rumours and revelations for the upcoming film.

I've already made very similar observations and comments to what you say here, a lot of them earlier in this same discussion. It's quite obvious that to portray the Calormenes and the Narnians on screen exactly as per the books would involve blatant racial stereotyping that just would not be accepted (and rightly not) today. It'd be nice if we lived in a world where it had never been accepted, but there it is. Like you, I don't believe Lewis was intentionally being racist, but he was falling back on tropes of the "Orient" and the exotic "Other" that were standard in the literature he grew up reading and were still common at the time when he wrote the Narnia books.

To reiterate a few things I've said before, if I were doing the casting for an entire series of all seven Chronicles, I would make the humans of Narnia much more ethnically diverse-looking than they're implied to be in the books. There are never all that many human beings in Narnia throughout its history, and it's implied they've been supplemented by new people coming in from our world at different times (like the pirates and South Sea Islanders who were the ancestors of the Telmarines) — most likely this happened more times than we ever hear about in the books. There's also at least some interbreeding between humans and magical creatures like nymphs and wood-gods and river-gods, we're told specifically at the end of MN. So it stands to reason that Narnian people should have a range of skin tones and hair colours.

Meanwhile, the Calormenes are a desert-dwelling people, which would logically lead to them evolving somewhat darker skin over many generations. I'd still give them a range of skin tones, just a bit darker on average than many Narnians. It could simply be that there are absolutely no blondes among the Calormenes, which still allows Shasta to stand out. (Or as I'm sure I said somewhere else, he could even be a redhead. )

But what I'd emphasise would be mainly differences in outfits and cultural trappings. I'm sure there must be a way to make the Calormenes look like desert people without directly imitating (and caricaturing) any cultures from our world. There are science fiction movies that have civilisations on other planets that are mainly desert or desert-like conditions (I'm not deeply familiar with any of them, not being a sci-fi fan, but the Star Wars and Dune films spring to mind). Possibly those could give some ideas.

I would also bring out the fact that the Calormenes worship multiple gods (as we learn from HHB) and that these gods are portrayed as idols, which helps to counter the claim that they're a bad caricature of Muslims. Islam is an adamantly monotheistic faith and absolutely forbids any kind of idolatry (or even the depiction of any kind of person or creature in their places of worship).

The Calormenes are portrayed quite negatively overall, but the main negative things about them are the things we in the modern world love to hate — their society is very materialistic, hierarchical, violent, imperialist, racist and misogynistic. (All faults, by the way, that white / European-derived societies, as well as others, have had in our world and to some extent still do.) I reckon this could be brought out in a film version while also showing us at least some glimpses of the other side of their society that we don't really see in the books. We could have further hints that their lower-class people are oppressed by the rich few — maybe there could be some scenes and sub-plots added to a film of HHB to show kindness and decency among ordinary Calormenes, who after all don't have any choice about being ruled by a violent autocracy. And definitely, definitely, definitely show a good number of Calormenes (including ones we recognise from the film of HHB) among the joyous throng in Aslan's country at the end of LB.

(Oh yes, and the unfortunate and awful blackface incident in LB is definitely OUT!!! There's no need for it, plot-wise, since Tirian and Jill and Eustace can simply disguise themselves in Calormene armour without needing to paint their skin, let alone show the marked distaste for it that they do in the book. Perhaps Calormene helmets can be designed to cover most of the face, which would help with the disguise as well as making the enemy Calormenes look more sinister.)

And then on top of all this, I would emphasise the incredible diversity of peoples in Narnia as one of that world's great strengths. Here is a place where not only human beings, but Fauns, Centaurs, Dwarfs, Dryads, Naiads and more, AND Talking Beasts of a huge range of species, share this land and for most of its history, get along well, with the understanding that every being and every type of creature should be able to live free and happy and allow others to do so in turn. And it's a world that, except for the relatively few periods where there are severe troubles (and children from our world are called on to help set things to rights), is generally full of happiness and kindness and all kinds of regular celebrations and merry-making just for the sheer joy of it.

Compare that to our world, where we humans are so often at odds (and too often at war) with others of our own kind whom we rate as "different" — how would we cope if we also shared this world with other species who had equal sentience and social capabilities to ours, like all those in Narnia??

If a new adaptation of the Chronicles could just bring these things out, while staying true to the spirit of the original stories, I think it could be hugely successful and wipe out all the understandable concerns about the racial stereotyping that unfortunately does occur in the books.

Posted by: @wanderer

Let me start by saying that I do not think Lewis is a racist or terrible person for writing Calorman the way he did. The world of Narnia will always be near and dear to my heart, and it has formed me as a writer and person, and it has also done so for many others. I also believe, however, that we as fans of Lewis can acknowledge the context in which he wrote. I believe that we can engage with the limitations of his writings (as all writers have), the harm these stereotypes have done in the wider media and historical context, and the concerns posed by some minority-background Narnia fans without diminishing the merit of his work....We cannot escape these issues in adaptation and interpretation. But perhaps we can work to mitigate them or be in dialogue with them by not dismissing the above concerns. I could see a production taking several tactics, with their strengths and weaknesses: ...-- Wanderer

I agree that your long post covers many points but I can't deal with all of them. I'm glad you have noted the resemblance of Calormen to the Ottoman Empire, which famously toppled what was left of the Eastern Roman Empire, which had flourished in Asia Minor, becoming the Byzantine Empire in 393 AD, but which finished in May, 1453 AD. Constantinople, once capital of the whole of both the West & the East parts of the Roman Empire & named after Constantine the Great who built the city from the former Greek colony at Byzantium, had a Roman/Greek culture for a millennium before its fall in 1453 AD. And like much of the Middle East, right up to nowadays Pakistan, were part of Alexander the Great's defeat of the Achaemenid Empire, but were held by the Hellenic/Syrian Seleucids, in particular. The Ottoman Empire, under Selim 1, also called Selim the Grim, expanded exponentially during his short reign from 10 October 1470 – 22 September 1520, to cover all of the Levant, Hejaz, Tihamah and Egypt itself, when between 1516 &1517, he defeated the Mameluke Sultanate. Overall, there is a distinct late medieval feel to Narnia, that I hope would be kept in any adaptation, when today's post USSR world is completely different. That medieval feel should also include Calormen, though you might not approve of that resemblance to the medieval Ottoman Empire, which was just as inclined to indulge in slavery, & to tolerate piracy in the Mediterranean, as other empires that arose after the Portuguese Captain, Bartolomeo Diaz, rounded the Cape of Good Hope in 1488. These include not only the Portuguese, the Spanish, Dutch, English/British, German, Belgian, and yes, the Russians as well. 

@wanderer  Calormene culture is presented as the archenemy of Narnia, diametrically opposed narratively, culturally, and philosophically/eschatologically. Calormene society is portrayed negatively--built on oppression and social disparity, poor sanitation in Tashbaan, etc. Many Calormene characters are foolish or abusive, though there are a few positive portrayals

Yes, the Tisroc, the possible Calormene equivalent of Selim 1, a particular Ottoman Sultan, who portentiously mentioned his "nineteen other sons", reminds me that Selim the Grim, as he also was called, was said to have murdered his nineteen brothers & cousins etc in order to succeed his father, Bayezid, without opposition. I've paid a visit to Istanbul, when we wanted to be at the commemoration of the centenary of ANZAC Day, named after the Australian and New Zealand troops who landed at Gallipoli on 25th April, 1915, in World War 1. That campaign was a definite victory in World War I for the Ottoman Empire, but at Beersheba, Australian troops - the Light Horse - played a winning part in the British campaign against the Ottomans in 1917. The Ottoman Empire was on the losing side, and fell completely by 1922, when the now Türkiye was formed as a republic under Kemal Ataturk. C.S. Lewis, along with JRR Tolkien & others, also fought on the Western Front in Flanders Fields, like my own great uncles, leaving their wives & children at home in Sydney to fend for themselves. One man's son, born whilst he was at war, insisted on calling him "man" when they finally returned, not able to recognise his father, except through photographs. 

@wanderer Narnia is an amalgamation of cultural influences from across Western Europe, ranging from British and Norse to Roman and Grecian. Calorman is an amalgamation of cultural influences from the “Near East” (Arabian Peninsula, Ottoman-Turkish Empire, and South Asia) and vaguely “Oriental” (which in itself is a rather confusing term).

Whilst I was in Istanbul, I visited Hagia Sophia, where an icon of Jesus Christ the Redeemer still decorates its interior above the whitewash line, enabling Justinian's church to be turned into a Mosque. We visited the nearby Topkapi Palace where there was indeed a harem, & was laid out uncommonly like the Palace at Tashbaan. I also visited the Grand Bazaar, & the Spice Markets which really smelled delicious, to tell the truth. Istanbul traffic was terrifying, just like Shasta found Tashbaan, though C.S. Lewis didn't include cars or buses, only that some people thought they might be more important than others, & expected everyone else to give way, still true today, all over the world, not only in Istanbul. The bus we were travelling in was held up by a road rage incident where two men were fighting each other with baseball bats .

@wanderer: Some of the descriptions are stereotypical and identify Calormen as the “exotic Other,” reminding some readers of painful, real-life experiences of being seen as exotic (e.g. the description of “smelling of onions and garlic” echoes mockery or ostracization readers of minority backgrounds have experienced due to their school lunches)

There is nothing unusual about Onions & Garlic, or people smelling of these things in a crowd. The same might have been said about getting onto crowded Sydney trains in the 1960's & 1970's when I used to catch the old red rattlers in Sydney, or our sardine expresses otherwise known as buses.  But I agree British tastes during C.S. Lewis' lifespan were rather dull by comparison with the French, Chinese, Italian, Japanese, Indian, Pakistani & Thai cuisines we enjoy in local restaurants, here. Especially during the austerity years after WW2, which C.S. Lewis also noted when Lucy & Edmund stayed with their cousin, Eustace. 

@wanderer All of the “good” Calormene characters admire Narnia and end up in Aslan's Country by choosing Narnia. Narnia is portrayed as culturally and morally superior to Calorman, as they have more honor, wisdom, and freedom. Two opposing cultures would not necessarily be an issue

You've noted that there were good Calormenes as well as bad. The same might have been said of the Telmarines, with whom the Calormenes were related, according to some secondary Narnia writers. The Telmarines' initial entry into Telmar, then Narnia, in Prince Caspian, was something like Christian Fletcher's mutiny on the Bounty against Captain William Bligh, also famous as the Governor of New South Wales deposed by the Rum Corps on what is now Australia Day, in 1808. 26/1/1788 was the date Sydney was founded by the First Fleet, all convicts & their guards, when after 4/7/1776, Great Britain could no longer dump its unwanted convicts in Georgia or The Bahamas for cheap labour. The point about both the Calormenes and the Ottomans is that like any other of the colonising powers along the old Asian Silk Roads, or sailing in the rest of the world, they were engrossed in commerce, after treasure or trade, were fond of cheap labour & were a sight too keen on domination, even within Europe & their own countries as well. 

@wanderer All of our Narnian heroes are fair of complexion (and sometimes hair) while all of the Calormene characters are described as vaguely brown or dark of skin and hair. By pitting these two against each other and having the Western Europe-coded culture come out triumphant and vindicated, it echoes colonialist narratives, implying that other, non-Western cultures are inherently inferior and backwards. This has the unfortunate correlation of light skin/European influence = good and darker skin

However, unlike Calormen, with its definitely non-Muslim gods & goddesses, Istanbul & Asia Minor were actually Christian before they were Muslim, the Roman & Greek gods having disappeared after Constantine the Great adopted Christianity, himself. Yes, Narnia's original heroes were fair of skin, being descended from a London cabbie & his wife. And yes, native Londoners lived in a misty, cloudy, rainy country where summer is more like an Australian winter, & where they have pasty fair skin to match. That, it seems, was also the case for Shasta, himself, whose Archenlandish family had been living in misty mountainous territory, unlike the Men of the south, whose very name suggested the heat of southern climes, including Australia. Thus, Shasta's fair skin left him sticking out like a sore toe, from Arsheesh & his cronies & neighbours, proving that Shasta was no real relation to Arsheesh, who was hoping to sell him as a slave to Anradin, with his crimson beard. I agree it is unfair to typecast Calormenes too much. The only real villains in Calormen were of the upper class or social climbers like the Grand Vizier, Aravis' stepmother, or Anradin & his mates in Rabadash's army, not the ordinary people, let alone slaves. And I shouldn't forget the slave traders of "Voyage of the Dawn Treader", Pug & his ilk, not to mention Governor Gumpas, who saw slave trading as a way of earning extra income, from the Calormenes, probably. 

@wanderer Narnia does not exist in a vacuum. It was written when many countries were beginning to or had already overthrown colonial rule, and those colonial overtones inform how readers engage with the text today. A Narnia adaptation of Calormene culture also sits in the broader media context of movies that have conflated stereotypes and generic cultural influences of the Middle East (and to some extent South Asia), such as the presence of the Arabian riff as shorthand for anything vaguely exotic and abundance of turbans, scimitars, and sand dunes in movies

I disagree with your comment that Narnia was written when many countries were beginning to or had already overthrown colonial rule, and those colonial overtones inform how readers engage with the text today that the Chronicles of Narnia were written, when C.S. Lewis passed away the same day as Aldous Huxley, who wrote Brave New World, and also John F Kennedy, assassinated in November 1963. Those were the days when the main conflicts were between Russia's atheist USSR, which after WW1 had taken on the old Tsarist Empire, but, along with the former Warsaw Pact countries of Eastern Europe, you might also see as being colonised by the USSR, was engaged in a post WW2 cold war against USA & Western Europe.  

Posted by: @courtenay

Hi @wanderer — good to see you here again!

Hi @courtenay, it's good to be back on the forum! Thank you for taking the time to type out a response. It certainly has been a lively place with all of the new announcements and rumors, and I'm glad more people are finding Narniaweb (though I do remember fondly the days on this forum when the most debated adaptation choice was the romance between Caspian and Susan...almost makes me feel nostalgic )

I would agree with many of the points you've brought up, particularly in this thread. A messy first draft of my thoughts was written many months ago after first read through this thread (and then it sat in my laptop collecting dust until I remembered it this week lol). I apologize if I did not credit you or the people on this thread enough, so I have since added an edit at the top of my post to clarify what influenced some of my reflections. 

Posted by: @courtenay

There's also at least some interbreeding between humans and magical creatures like nymphs and wood-gods and river-gods

Great point! I forgot about that aspect, which would be the perfect place to introduce people of different skin tones/hair colors even if the production wanted to keep the Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve Anglo-British

And a redheaded Shasta? That would be very interesting. As to the rest of your points about possible portrayals of Calorman, there are so many creative yet faithful ways they could take this, especially with subplots to add more dimension to Calormene society. 

Posted by: @courtenay

If a new adaptation of the Chronicles could just bring these things out, while staying true to the spirit of the original stories, I think it could be hugely successful and wipe out all the understandable concerns about the racial stereotyping that unfortunately does occur in the books.

The diversity of Narnia itself with all of its inhabitants is something that should be emphasized more, and highlighting that in an adaptation--that is my hope as well! 

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

Overall, there is a distinct late medieval feel to Narnia, that I hope would be kept in any adaptation, when today's post USSR world is completely different. 

Hi @waggawerewofl27, thank you so much for reading my long post and taking the time to type out a response to engage with discussion points. I appreciate it!  

Thank you for all of the historical context about the Ottoman Empire and Byzantium. Medieval history of Eastern Europe and the Middle East is something that I would like to learn more about but have not done much research into. Your point about the late medieval world vs. the post USSR world is a good one, as I think this context is lost to many modern readers. I think the issue for some fans is that while the European empires were just as inclined to indulge in slavery, tolerate piracy etc. as you bring up, all of those negative historical connotations fall squarely on the shoulders of the Ottoman-inspired Calormenes. Meanwhile, the Western Europe-influenced Narnia/Archenland keeps all of the positive/romanticized aspects of medieval history (e.g. the chivalry, knighthood, grand quests, fantastical creatures) without much regard to the negative, making it feel unbalanced. This is all understandable given Lewis's education as an Oxford professor and the classical and medieval literature he drew from, and I myself and fascinated by the echoes of the influences in the Chronicles, but I think that is why it has drawn criticism. 

I also appreciate your point about the WWI's influence on Lewis and Tolkien and how they would've perceived the late Ottoman Empire. Thank you for sharing a glimpse into your own family history.

I'm glad that you had the opportunity to visit Istanbul and walk through the spaces that might have inspired Calorman. Seeing the inspiration perhaps made Tashbaan more real, though that road rage incident sounds terrifying!  

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

There is nothing unusual about Onions & Garlic, or people smelling of these things in a crowd. 

Even though smelling of onions and garlic might be a neutral description by itself, those smells in describing people usually have a very negative connotation of being odorous and unpleasant. If they were described as smelling like any of the other spices in the Spice Markets of Istanbul (e.g. cinnamon, cardamom, mint, etc.), it probably wouldn't be seen as negative or insensitive. I suppose I was trying to articulate why some readers of a minority background would take issue with this description, especially if they had had experiences being bullied for their own strongly smelling cultural foods.

I was also reminded of this thread, which contains further discussion of the quote's implications as well as the full quote: 

Then the dark men came round them in a thick crowd, smelling of garlic and onions, their white eyes flashing dreadfully in their brown faces.

I think it's the context of the quote that removes the neutrality. The pairing of "smelling of garlic and onions" with "white eyes flashing dreadfully in their brown faces" seems to link the unpleasant smell with the dangerous and dark-skinned Calormenes, thus making them more threatening and "foreign" to our main characters.

Thank you also for the context and sharing about Australian history! I love learning new things.

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

I disagree with your comment that Narnia was written when many countries were beginning to or had already overthrown colonial rule, and those colonial overtones inform how readers engage with the text today that the Chronicles of Narnia were written, when C.S. Lewis passed away the same day as Aldous Huxley, who wrote Brave New World, and also John F Kennedy, assassinated in November 1963. 

I see what you're saying about the Cold War context by the time of C.S. Lewis's death and his influences. I also see that my wording is ambiguous. While writing it, I was trying to express how the nationalist movements for independence from colonial rule throughout 1940-1960 affect how readers interpret things now. The Chronicles were published from 1950-1957 during this geopolitical reshuffling and decolonization, which informs how readers today living in a more globalized world interpret aspects like Calorman. 

@wanderer While writing it, I was trying to express how the nationalist movements for independence from colonial rule throughout 1940-1960 affect how readers interpret things now. The Chronicles were published from 1950-1957 during this geopolitical reshuffling and decolonization, which informs how readers today living in a more globalized world interpret aspects like Calorman. 

Quite so. But when we have to be careful not to get too political, it is a necessary reminder that so-called colonisation & decolonisation which was definitely unravelling after World War II, in various forms & places, is still a heated topic right up to the present, to be handled with care. Even after WW1, the 1919 Treaty of Versailles and the formation of the then League of Nations, plus its overseeing the two areas designated "Mandate Palestine" & the accompanying growth of Arabian nationalism after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, is still having a huge impact on day-to-day World News, especially during our coming election. Even Australia, which officially stopped being a colony, itself, on 1/1/1901, Queen Victoria having signed off its constitution on 9/7/1900, became a colonial power, when after the collapse of the German Empire, Papua/New Guinea became its protectorate at the end of WW1. As Einstein said, An action causes an equal and opposite reaction.

It also doesn't do to politicise either Narnia or Calormen too much, when Narnia was established to be a land of Talking beasts and birds, with humans as guardians, whilst Calormen is more or less an all too realistic human society. Whilst both Calormenes & Telmarines drifted in somehow, along the way to beef up the Narnia human factor. That Tisroc that I mentioned before, was little different from Prince Caspian's Uncle Miraz, & his Grand Vizier is no better an advisor than Voyage of the Dawn Treader's Governor Gumpas & his mismanagement of looking after the Lone Islands, 

@wanderer Thank you for all of the historical context about the Ottoman Empire and Byzantium. Medieval history of Eastern Europe and the Middle East is something that I would like to learn more about but have not done much research into. Your point about the late medieval world vs. the post USSR world is a good one, as I think this context is lost to many modern readers.

You are welcome.   Having completed a technical college certificate course to become a librarian, in 1969, I undertook a double major, by distance education, in a Bachelor of Arts degree, which then enabled me to later qualify in a proper post-graduate master's degree in Librarianship, in 2002. As well as French grammar & literature, I studied Ancient History, mostly about Rome and Athens, finishing off with a 2-point unit on the so-called Dark Ages, a period of time, people also seem to forget, which began after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD at the hands of Germanic tribes, including the Lombards in Italy.

In contrast, the fall of Constantinople on 29th of May, 1453, is a major date to remember in World History, when by that time the Ottoman Empire had already taken over much of the Balkan Peninsula, almost as far as Romania & Hungary. Greece, itself, did not attain independence from the Ottoman Empire until 25th March, 1821. Under Suleiman the Magnificent (6 November 1494 – 6 September 1566) the Ottomans besieged Vienna, having broken the Kingdom of Hungary, after the 1526 Battle of Mohács. Other sieges of Vienna also took place, notably one on 12 September 1683, which failed, when Polish/Lithuanian troops led by King John III Sobieski came to the rescue of Vienna, the then capital of the Hapsburg Holy Roman Empire as well as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, much like King Edmund relieved King Lune's defence of his castle in the Battle of Anvard, against Rabadash and his men, in Horse & his Boy.

For your own historical information, a good non-fiction book to read about the sweep of world history might be Peter Frankopan's 2015 The Silk Roads: a new history of the world.  

I'm sure that the depiction of the Calormenes in HHB and LB (if they ever get that far into the series) will get a lot of people talking. Though I can see how it's going to be hard without offending anyone? Why can't we just enjoy the series just as they are?

Though it should be interesting how Netflix or whatever company does Narnia will direction they'll take in depicting the Calormenes.

Posted by: @jasmine_tarkheena

Why can't we just enjoy the series just as they are?

Because there is a very long history of light-skinned people of European origins oppressing and exploiting and discriminating against darker-skinned people — most notoriously through empire-building and the trans-Atlantic slave trade — and the world is still living with the effects of that in so many ways. It's not the only example of racism in human history — racism, contrary to popular belief, is not always or only about skin colour — but it's the most obvious and prominent and talked-about in today's world.

The books were written in the 1950s, when a white British / Irish writer like Lewis could easily portray a good, light-skinned, medieval-Europe-like civilisation struggling against a mostly evil, dark-skinned, desert-dwelling civilisation and could get away with a then-standard trope like that without much controversy. The books are what they are — they're a product of their times and I would absolutely object to them being rewritten (read: censored) to suit modern tastes. We can definitely enjoy them as they are, while understanding the historical context they were written in and why it wouldn't be OK to write heroes and villains in that way today.

But the world has changed a lot since Lewis's time, and we're all a lot more interconnected and a lot more aware of the past and present effects of racism and colonialism and so on, all over the world. So if any film-maker in the 2020s decided to make a screen adaptation that played the Narnians vs Calormenes exactly as the books have them — light-skinned goodies vs dark-skinned baddies — that adaptation would be absolutely slammed as racist and totally unacceptable.

I hope that's not too difficult for anyone to understand, honestly.

Wow, a lot of thorough discussion here! I need more time to go through it all! 

I'm currently thinking that the Calormenes will be represented by a variety of ethnicities in the Netflix adaptations. Seems to be the way it goes at the moment in films and TV. Well, it would fix some racism worries...

@ Sir Cabbage I'm currently thinking that the Calormenes will be represented by a variety of ethnicities in the Netflix adaptations. Seems to be the way it goes at the moment in films and TV. Well, it would fix some racism worries...

That could be a really good idea. In HHB the skin tones were only important when Shasta, a castaway, whom Arsheesh had pressed into hard labour, was only too easily identified by Tarkhaan  Anradin, as no kin of Arsheesh, and resembling the fairer-skinned people of the Narnian & Archenlandish courts at Anvard & Cair Paravel. Calormen seems to have been a largeish country with a hot climate, which accounts for darker skin tones, leaving owners more resistant to sunburn in outdoors work. 

Did C.S. Lewis actually visit Greece & Turkey on some cruise or other? The titles he gives Calormen nobles such as Tarkhaans, in particular, a Turkic language title, like Aslan, himself, vaguely spread across Central Asia from the Middle East to as far away as Punjab (In Sanskrit 5 rivers?). But though Tashbaan, itself, seems to be related to Uzbekistan's Tashkent, the title of Tisroc looks made up especially for the series. I can't help noticing how well the Ottoman Empire fits as a source, when in 1453, the Turkic - speaking Ottomans had been settling in Asia Minor, prior to the May 29th capture of Constantinople, having also penetrated much of South - Eastern Europe. One of the more noticeable recent consequences of this long-lived Ottoman incursion was the final breakup of the post WW2 country of Yugoslavia in the 1990's, which had been led by Communist Marshall Joseph Broz Tito until after his 4/5/1980 death, when the conflict broke along the lines of the Muslim Kosova, neighbouring Albania and Bosnia & Herzegovina, the Serbian Orthodox Serbia with its Cyrillic alphabet, and Croatia & Slovenia in the North, which had at one stage been taken over by the Austro-Hungarian Empire, & like the rest of Yugoslavia had been invaded by Italy & Germany during WW2. 

Yes, it might be a really good idea to include a whole range of ethnicities, not only "Middle East", but also Greek & other Balkan countries for instance. Tehishbaan, in the West, apparently, where Emeth came from, might well have had a more mountainous climate, like Archenland, for instance.  

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

Did C.S. Lewis actually visit Greece & Turkey on some cruise or other? The titles he gives Calormen nobles such as Tarkhaans, in particular, a Turkic language title, like Aslan, himself, vaguely spread across Central Asia from the Middle East to as far away as Punjab (In Sanskrit 5 rivers?). But though Tashbaan, itself, seems to be related to Uzbekistan's Tashkent, the title of Tisroc looks made up especially for the series.

He didn't visit Greece until 1960, having finished the Chronicles four years earlier. 

Roger Lancelyn Green writes in his biography that "Lewis professed to take no interest in foreign travel, had never been outside the British Isles, except to France as a boy and during the First World War", but to visit Greece was his wife Joy's great ambition, and he was eager to take her there if it were possible. Green and his wife June helped them to arrange a trip in April 1960, which the two couples took together, and they all enjoyed it very much - although Joy's health was deteriorating rapidly. Lewis wrote to a friend, "She came back in a nunc dimittis frame of mind" - she had finally realised her long desire.
She died that summer.

So all Lewis had as background materials for his non-Narnian cultures within his Narnian world when he wrote about them, was taken from his readings. But as those readings were extensive, he still had lots of details he could consider.