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Does Ramandu's Daughter need a name in Netflix's Narnia? Should it be different from Lilliandil?  

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The Rose-Tree Dryad
(@rose)
Secret Garden Agent Moderator

To name or not to name?

In a movie adaptation of The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, I feel like you can theoretically get away without naming her she's not on-screen that much. In a television series, though (which is what I think everyone expects Netflix to do with VDT), that seems a lot more difficult. The crew of the Dawn Treader is on Ramandu's Island for a couple of days and nobody ever asking about her name, or forever referring to her as "hey you," just doesn't seem practical from a scripting standpoint.

(If they don't give her a name, they had better have Caspian facepalm and exclaim "... I never even asked her for her name!!" as they're sailing away. Tongue )

As fond as I am of Douglas Gresham (he's C. S. Lewis's stepson and an executive producer on the movies/series), I never cared for the Lilliandil name that he coined for Fox/Walden's VDT. On the one hand, it's so similar to the name Lillian, which makes you think of American or English people. On another hand, that -dil suffix has a much more Middle Earth-ish vibe than anything Narnian, imo.

So, do you think Ramandu's Daughter needs a name? If so, what sort of name do you think she should have? Hmmm

(Yeeeears ago, when The Silver Chair was still in production, Narnia film producers ran a contest where fans could pick the name of the Lady of the Green Kirtle... I have no idea if anybody ever won or if that name will ever see the light of day, but I think it would be cool if they did something similar for Ramandu's Daughter!)

Twitter: Rose_the_Dryad

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Posted : June 8, 2020 5:29 pm
Wanderer Between Worlds
(@wanderer)
NarniaWeb Nut

I’ve heard some people say before that her not having a name adds to the mystery and ethereal nature of her character.  That said, I still think that naming her is for the best, especially if they go for a TV series that fills in the space between VDT and SC, perhaps showing her and Caspian’s wedding and Rilian as a child to build up to the events of SC.  I would not be opposed to filling in the gap, if done right.

However, I agree with you, Rose, that Lilliandil doesn’t sound quite right. The name “Lillian” appears to be Latin in origin, which makes sense given plethora of stars/celestial bodies with Latin names.  It also sounds phonetically linked to “Rilian”—perhaps another reason why it was chosen.  I’ve also read somewhere that the producers/Mr. Gresham wanted to link it to the lilies in the Last Sea. The “Lillian” part makes it sound too modern, and I think that the name of Ramandu’s daughter should have more of an ethereal presence, given that her ancestry is among the stars.

These are all of the named stars/celestial bodies I could find in the books (aside from the constellations):

  • Tavra, Lord of Victory 
  • Alambil, Lady of Peace
  • Aravir, the morning star of Narnia 
  • Coriakin 
  • Ramandu

I found it interesting that while the names vary, they all contain hard consonants (no soft consonants except for “L”), and almost exclusively contain the vowels “a” and “i.”  “Lilliandil” seems fall in line with “Alambil,” the only named female star, perhaps another reason why it was chosen.

As for alternative names, what do you think about Illastra/Ilastra (the first letter is supposed to be an “i”)?  In my opinion, the “il” at the beginning keeps the flowing sound in “Alambil” and is perhaps reminiscent of “lily.”  “Astra” means “from the stars“ and is derived from either Latin or Greek (Google gave me different results).  Does it sound celestial and ethereal enough?

—Wanderer

"I am,” said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.”

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Posted : June 8, 2020 7:23 pm
shastastwin
(@shastastwin)
Member Moderator Emeritus

I guess it depends, as you said, on whether they do a film or a longer format for their VDT adaptation. But given the fact that she figures into the background of SC, I think I would prefer her to be named. (Thus she is not only "the star's daughter" or "the queen" but "Queen [Name].")

However, I am not at all attached to the name Lilliandil. I'd rather not create too many ties to that version of the story. If the production team wanted to do a naming contest, I'd be interested to see what the fans came up with. But given the star names we have in the books, there might be enough to create a name in that vein (Tarva, Alambil, Coriakin, Ramandu . . . are there others I've forgotten?).

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Posted : June 8, 2020 7:28 pm
Eustace
(@eustace)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I was thinking that to cause less confusion, she could have a name starting with an R and having a D in the name as well. If she did, we could still call her RD (Ramandu's daughter) without newcomers being too confused. Rosalind, Rosamund, and Radmila are the names I am suggesting, they should very pretty to me, and I could see her having any of those names. I think that Lilliandil sounds too Elvish, although, Tolkien and Lewis have at least one name in common in their books, Aravir, the morning star of Narnia, is also a Chieftain in Tolkien books. 


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Posted : June 9, 2020 2:11 pm
The Rose-Tree Dryad
(@rose)
Secret Garden Agent Moderator
Posted by: @wanderer-between-worlds

However, I agree with you, Rose, that Lilliandil doesn’t sound quite right. The name “Lillian” appears to be Latin in origin, which makes sense given plethora of stars/celestial bodies with Latin names.  It also sounds phonetically linked to “Rilian”—perhaps another reason why it was chosen.

That's a very good point! Now that you mention it, I remember that thought crossing my mind at one point. If the name had been Liliandil instead of Lilliandil, I think a lot of people would have made that connection. (Thinking about it, I do like that spelling quite a bit better.) Between that and your breakdown of the types of consonants used in other stars' names, as well as the similarity with Alambil that you pointed out, it does seem that Mr. Gresham put quite a bit of thought into the name... but like you, I still find the result unsatisfying. Giggle

Posted by: @wanderer-between-worlds

As for alternative names, what do you think about Illastra/Ilastra (the first letter is supposed to be an “i”)?  In my opinion, the “il” at the beginning keeps the flowing sound in “Alambil” and is perhaps reminiscent of “lily.”  “Astra” means “from the stars“ and is derived from either Latin or Greek (Google gave me different results).  Does it sound celestial and ethereal enough?

Ooh, how would you pronounce that? Like illustrious, or Ee-lah-stra? And I'm not sure if you intended this, but the "last" element in it makes me think of the Last Sea. Smile That said, it also makes me think of Calormene names, more so than the name of a star Ilsombreh and Ilgamuth, for instance. Hmmm

Posted by: @eustace

I was thinking that to cause less confusion, she could have a name starting with an R and having a D in the name as well. If she did, we could still call her RD (Ramandu's daughter) without newcomers being too confused. Rosalind, Rosamund, and Radmila are the names I am suggesting, they should very pretty to me, and I could see her having any of those names.

That's a really interesting idea! And Radmila's a pretty rad name. Giggle

The other day I was thinking about name meanings for inspiration, and besides the more generic "beauty" ⁠— "when they looked at her they thought they had never before known what beauty meant" ⁠— I also thought of the word altar. Aslan's Table is a type of altar, and of course she marries Caspian, presumably at an altar (although, as I think of it, I'm rather fuzzy on exactly what a Narnian wedding would look like).

So I think drawing on a word or a name that means altar could be interesting. This led me to the Spanish name Araceli, which means altar of the sky, and is pronounced Ar-ah-sel-y in Spanish and Ar-ah-thel-y in European Spanish. While I wouldn't want them to use that name specifically, I do think that maybe one could extrapolate some possible names from it. So maybe something like Arasel, Arathel, or Aradel (which phonetically ties into the R and D elements that @Eustace talked about). And while it's so similar to Aravis then again, Aravir is even more similar! — I find I quite like Aravel, too.

 

Twitter: Rose_the_Dryad

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Posted : June 9, 2020 7:48 pm
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I'm guessing Netflix will give Ramandu's daughter a name of some sort. It didn't really stand out to me, when reading the books as a child, that she is never named, as she's only "on stage" for a short period in the three books in which she appears. In fact, in VDT she exists almost solely to give Caspian a love interest and a reason for returning (the scene on Ramandu's island could easily be rewritten with just Ramandu); in SC she appears only in "flashback" to be bitten by a serpent and die; and in LB she's among the huge crowd of old friends they meet again in Aslan's country. It would have been nice if Lewis had expanded her character and importance a bit, since as it is she's largely just a sort of trope, and a nameless one at that. But I don't think modern screenwriters could get away with having the wife of one of the main characters go un-named, which I would guess is why she does have a name in the film version of VDT.

That said, I don't like the name Lilliandil — it sounds far too much like a rip-off of Tolkien's Elvish names and I feel like it doesn't really have a "Narnian" ring to it. If they want to take an obscure name from the Chronicles instead, I'd vote for Aravir, which has already been mentioned as the morning star of Narnia (which book is that in? It's totally escaping me!). I didn't know it was a name Tolkien uses too, but it certainly sounds more like a name that someone in Narnia would have.

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : June 10, 2020 8:20 am
Wanderer Between Worlds
(@wanderer)
NarniaWeb Nut

@courtenay, Aravir is mentioned in chapter eleven of Prince Caspian, titled “The Lion Roars.”  The mention occurs shortly after Aslan tosses Trumpkin in the air: 

“The girls watched them out of sight, standing close beside Aslan.  Low down in the east, Aravir, the morning star of Narnia, gleamed like a little moon.”

"I am,” said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.”

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Posted : June 10, 2020 9:55 am
Courtenay
(@courtenay)
NarniaWeb Junkie

@wanderer-between-worlds Oh, thanks, Wanderer. Gosh, and I re-read that one not all that long ago, so you'd think I'd remember! I ought to know my Narnian stars better than that by now, after all these years. Wink  

Edited to add: Hmmm, now that's got me thinking — is "the morning star of Narnia" really a star, or actually a planet, like Venus the "morning star" is in our world? But that's going way off the topic of this thread... Grin  

"Now you are a lioness," said Aslan. "And now all Narnia will be renewed."
(Prince Caspian)

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Posted : June 10, 2020 9:56 am
Wanderer Between Worlds
(@wanderer)
NarniaWeb Nut
Posted by: @eustace

Rosalind, Rosamund, and Radmila are the names I am suggesting, they should very pretty to me, and I could see her having any of those names.

     I like the idea of having an “r” and a “d” in her name to reflect Ramandu! Grin   Of the ones you mentioned, I think my favorite is Rosamund, as it also has a long “u” that echoes the end of Ramandu (though perhaps is sounds a bit too Medieval English).  Radmila is very pretty, too.


Posted by: @rose

Ooh, how would you pronounce that? Like illustrious, or Ee-lah-stra? And I'm not sure if you intended this, but the "last" element in it makes me think of the Last Sea. Smile That said, it also makes me think of Calormene names, more so than the name of a star Ilsombreh and Ilgamuth, for instance. Hmmm

     I was thinking about the pronunciation along the lines of “Ee-lah-stra,” with a slight emphasis on the “lah” syllable.  I didn’t make the connection between “lah” and the Last Sea, either!  I’d forgotten that Ilsombreh and Ilgamuth were Calormene names, and Illastra does seem to follow in that vein.  However, I can’t think of any Calormene names that end in a vowel, so that might be enough to set it apart.  Additionally, Aravir is a star that is only one letter away from Aravis, a Calormene name.  Which begs the question—could Aravir have originated in Calormene astronomy but gradually worked its way in to Narnian astronomy? Hmmm  

     I also love the meaning behind Araceli.  “Altar of the stars” is so evocative and poetic. Bats eyes  I think my favorite variation is that you mentioned is Arathel.  In my opinion, it is vaguely reminiscent of “ethereal.”  Aravel is nice too, but I think it sounds a bit too close to Cair Paravel.
      Do you pronounce the “a” in Aravir and Alambil as “ah” or “ai”?  I tend to pronounce Aravir with an “air” sound and Alambil with an “ah” sound, but I should probably be more consistent. Giggle  

"I am,” said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.”

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Posted : June 10, 2020 10:48 am
The Rose-Tree Dryad
(@rose)
Secret Garden Agent Moderator
Posted by: @courtenay

Hmmm, now that's got me thinking — is "the morning star of Narnia" really a star, or actually a planet, like Venus the "morning star" is in our world? But that's going way off the topic of this thread... Grin  

And now you've got me thinking about Narnian planets and Narnian space travel. Giggle Maybe I do want to see a spin-off about the Stars (and Planets?) of Narnia, per Glumpuddle's idea in the latest Talking Beasts episode. Tongue

Posted by: @wanderer-between-worlds

Additionally, Aravir is a star that is only one letter away from Aravis, a Calormene name.  Which begs the question—could Aravir have originated in Calormene astronomy but gradually worked its way in to Narnian astronomy?

That crossed my mind, too! It makes you wonder if Calormen had a well-developed study of astronomy, like so many ancient cultures around the world here on Earth. Although... where do stars' names come from, anyway? Do they name themselves? Are they given them by Aslan? Or do they have their "real" names, but also answer to the names given to them by inhabitants of Narnia? ... I've never really thought about this before. Maybe they just have parents like everyone else and get their names from them. Giggle

Speaking of parentage, it does occur to me that Ramandu's daughter's mother wasn't a star, and therefore that might have had some impact on her name. Thus a more "human" name like Rosamund, like @Eustace suggested — or at least something not quite as exotic as a star's name — wouldn't necessarily be out of the question.

Posted by: @wanderer-between-worlds

I also love the meaning behind Araceli.  “Altar of the stars” is so evocative and poetic. Bats eyes  I think my favorite variation is that you mentioned is Arathel.  In my opinion, it is vaguely reminiscent of “ethereal.”  Aravel is nice too, but I think it sounds a bit too close to Cair Paravel.

Ah, good point about Paravel. Giggle And I love that observation about Arathel/ethereal! Okay, I'm sold. Ethereal is one of my favorite words. Grin LOL

Posted by: @wanderer-between-worlds

Do you pronounce the “a” in Aravir and Alambil as “ah” or “ai”?  I tend to pronounce Aravir with an “air” sound and Alambil with an “ah” sound, but I should probably be more consistent. Giggle  

The same, I think... Aravir like Aragorn, and Ah-lahm-bil... or A-lam-bil. Can't quite decide on the second syllable. Giggle

Twitter: Rose_the_Dryad

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Posted : June 10, 2020 9:52 pm
Movie Aristotle
(@risto)
NarniaWeb Junkie

I do think it makes sense to give Ramandu's Daughter a name in the new adaptations since she appears in more than one story.

Since Douglas Gresham came up with the name Liliandil, I think we can consider it canon. It is his contribution to Narnian lore, and I think we'd better give him that. Although it does remind one of Middle-Earth, it also sounds star-like to me. As @wanderer-between-worlds mentioned, it reminds one of lilies, is much like Rilian, and ends with "il" like Alambil. (Thanks for making the Lilian-Rilian connection for me. I don't think I'd thought of that before!)

Posted by: @rose

If the name had been Liliandil instead of Lilliandil, I think a lot of people would have made that connection. (Thinking about it, I do like that spelling quite a bit better.)

According to IMDB, the spelling is "Liliandil." Narniafans confirms this spelling and goes so far as to call "Lilliandil" a misspelling. If that's the case, Fandom and Wikipedia misspell it. Anyone feel like spending an evening correcting the wikis? Giggle

Posted by: @wanderer-between-worlds

As for alternative names, what do you think about Illastra/Ilastra (the first letter is supposed to be an “i”)?

Since "Ill" can mean bad, such as in "Ill will," I think "Ill Star" might give the wrong impression.

Posted by: @eustace

I think that Lilliandil sounds too Elvish, although, Tolkien and Lewis have at least one name in common in their books, Aravir, the morning star of Narnia, is also a Chieftain in Tolkien books. 

Don't forget "Bree," if you don't mind mixing people's names with place names. Also, "Ettinmoors" and "Ettinsmoor" are incredibly close.

Posted by: @wanderer-between-worlds

Which begs the question—could Aravir have originated in Calormene astronomy but gradually worked its way in to Narnian astronomy?

Since Narnia came first, I think the name may have started in Narnia and migrated south with the founders of Calormen. It is intriguing to think that, within the lore of Narnia, Aravis might have been named after the morning star. However, in the real world, I think the similarity is probably coincidence.

Posted by: @rose

Although... where do stars' names come from, anyway? Do they name themselves? Are they given them by Aslan? Or do they have their "real" names, but also answer to the names given to them by inhabitants of Narnia? ... I've never really thought about this before. Maybe they just have parents like everyone else and get their names from them.

All of the above? Giggle Perhaps Aslan taught Frank and Helen the names of the stars originally. Perhaps there was even fellowship between the stars and Narnians in the old days. This makes me wonder, are any new Narnian stars born, or are there always the same number? Ramandu was an old star who would one day return to the sky, and he made it sound like that was the norm for stars, that is, that they leave and come back to the sky. But Lewis doesn’t really mention new stars in the sky, does he? And yet, Ramandu has a daughter. Is she half-star? Full-blooded star? I suppose you could make a case either way. No idea

Movie Aristotle, AKA Risto

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Posted : June 15, 2020 7:05 pm
Wanderer Between Worlds
(@wanderer)
NarniaWeb Nut
Posted by: @risto

And yet, Ramandu has a daughter. Is she half-star? Full-blooded star? I suppose you could make a case either way. No idea

     I’ve always thought that Ramandu’s daughter was a half-star.  When Lewis introduces Ramandu, I think he makes a distinction.  Lewis notes that instead of carrying a light like his daughter, light came from Ramandu himself.  To me, this seems to indicate that Ramandu is a full-blooded star, but his daughter is not. 

     In this line of thinking, @rose had an interesting hypothesis here that Ramandu’s wife could have been one of the Sea People near the edge of the world.

"I am,” said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.”

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Posted : June 15, 2020 9:48 pm
The Rose-Tree Dryad
(@rose)
Secret Garden Agent Moderator
Posted by: @risto

Since Douglas Gresham came up with the name Liliandil, I think we can consider it canon. It is his contribution to Narnian lore, and I think we'd better give him that. Although it does remind one of Middle-Earth, it also sounds star-like to me.

Those are good points. I wouldn't want to disappoint Mr. Gresham by changing it. On the other hand, he himself may have come to associate the name with a version of VDT that left much to be desired. Tongue And he might also be interested in the idea of a contest, too.

I also wonder if the name Liliandil was trademarked by Walden/Fox in any way, because it's unique to the film? Hmmm

Posted by: @risto

According to IMDB, the spelling is "Liliandil." Narniafans confirms this spelling and goes so far as to call "Lilliandil" a misspelling. If that's the case, Fandom and Wikipedia misspell it. Anyone feel like spending an evening correcting the wikis?

Wow, I'm amazed that the misspelling is so prevalent! And I'm contributing to the problem, apparently. Shocked Thanks for the correction, I feel a little bit better about the name now. Giggle

Posted by: @wanderer-between-worlds

I’ve always thought that Ramandu’s daughter was a half-star.  When Lewis introduces Ramandu, I think he makes a distinction.  Lewis notes that instead of carrying a light like his daughter, light came from Ramandu himself.  To me, this seems to indicate that Ramandu is a full-blooded star, but his daughter is not. 

Also, in the recounting the tale of Rilian's disappearance in The Silver Chair, it's said that "the blood of the stars flowed in her veins." That always sounded to me like she was descended from stars, but not entirely a star.

Twitter: Rose_the_Dryad

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Posted : June 16, 2020 8:05 pm
coracle
(@coracle)
NarniaWeb's Auntie Moderator

Descended from stars - yes, and right through the line of kings, until Tirian, the last king of Narnia.

He too had something of the stars in his blood, although he is seven generations since Rilian and therefore eight since Caspian and Ramandu's daughter..

So when the stars are called home, in The Last Battle, Tirian is seeing distant relations? 

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Posted : June 16, 2020 10:16 pm
Reepi
(@reepi)
NarniaWeb Nut

It still makes no sense to me how they never even called Dr. Cornelius by name in PC but felt the need to come up with a name for Ramandu's daughter just so she could say "I am Lilliandil" as the only time that name is even mentioned in the film.

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Posted : June 22, 2020 3:55 am
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