Posted by: @hermit

  

What self functioning magic?....  

... I see nothing at all in the books to suggest that Narnia has some sort of inherent magical protection, apart from the Tree of Protection itself, which was a specific deterrent against Jadis. If such protection originally existed why would a magical apple tree have been needed in the first place?

Well, take into account that it was my best attempt at providing a fun answer to an unanswerable question...

But yes, I was referring to The Tree of Protection.

King Frank was appointed as King on the basis that he did not need to worry about providing a military defence for Narnia, given that the Tree of Protection would repel any attempt by Jadis simply by virtue of magic. 

By all means you can pick as many holes in that theory as you like, as ultimately its just a bit of fun. 

Like we all gave the "correct" but fairly boring answer to the original question straight away (that Lewis was writing a simple children's story) therefore I think all we've really got left is to try and think of whatever fun, silly and wacky ideas we can in order to make things more interesting. 

@icarus I am the last person who would want to stop anyone speculating. As you say, there's the 'behind the scenes' explanation, that Lewis was writing a children's story and was never as obsessive about filling in every last detail of his fantasy world as Tolkein anyway. But it's certainly fun to try to come up with 'in universe' explanations. I just find this idea of a sort of general magical protection for Narnia to be too vague to be really satisfying.

I imagine for the first few years the Tree itself would be a sufficient defence. Then as Jadis grew in power and acquired the sort of followers we saw in LWW something more organised might be needed. Aslan did tell the Narnians their first care should be to guard the Tree. But most of the Talking Animals have their own in built weapons; for those who did need weapons I expect Frank and Helen remembered a fair bit about medieval weaponry and they had the skill and creative instincts of the Dwarfs to put that into practice. They would also have had the advice of the wiser creatures, such as Owls, Ravens and Centaurs  to help organise things and probably some guidance from Aslan as well.

Another question of course is where the followers of Jadis we saw in LWW actually came from, as there's no hint of their existence in TMN. I can think of two possible explanations. Either they were originally Narnians Jadis corrupted and twisted (similar to the way Melkor made Orcs by corrupting captured Elves in Middle Earth) or they are evil creatures she found a way of bringing into Narnia from some other world. It might even be both.

Posted by: @hermit

What self functioning magic? As far as I can see Narnia's defence rests entirely with conventional armies and navies, at least as far as we can consider armed forces that include fantastical creatures such as giants and centaurs to be conventional. 

I see nothing at all in the books to suggest that Narnia has some sort of inherent magical protection, apart from the Tree of Protection itself, which was a specific deterrent against Jadis. If such protection originally existed why would a magical apple tree have been needed in the first place?

A lot of what we're talking about here is largely speculation anyway, since we don't see very much of the history of Narnia in detail like we do with the history of Arda / Middle-earth. But I do think there's at least a hint that Narnia has, if not an "inherent magical protection" (apart from the Tree of Protection, which doesn't last forever), certainly more innate goodness somehow than we see in our own world.

Narnia definitely isn't "unfallen", in the theological sense, as evil does enter it at its beginning and is never completely absent from there on in. I've only read the first book of Lewis's Space Trilogy, but I'm aware that the second book, Perelandra, deals specifically with what an unfallen world might be like, if Satan tried to corrupt it and failed. It's clear Narnia isn't meant to be a re-run of that scenario. However, from what we see of it, Narnia — the land of Narnia itself at least, not necessarily the entire world it's a part of — does seem to be less corrupt and more resistant to evil than our world is, or even than some of its own neighbouring countries (Telmar and Calormen) are. (Let alone the world of Charn.)

The books make clear in at least a couple of places that Narnia, for most of its history, is a land just about overflowing with joy and peace. Mr Tumnus tells Lucy "wonderful tales" of life before the Witch's endless winter, of dances and feasts and treasure-seeking and the rivers flowing with wine, when "the whole forest would give itself up to jollification for weeks on end" (LWW, Chapter 2). And then there's this memorable passage from the final book (with the heavy irony of what happens directly afterwards):

[Jewel] said that the Sons and Daughters of Adam and Eve were brought out of their own strange world into Narnia only at times when Narnia was stirred and upset, but [Jill] mustn't think it was always like that. In between their visits there were hundreds and thousands of years when peaceful King followed peaceful King till you could hardly remember their names or count their numbers, and there was really hardly anything to put into the History Books... He talked of whole centuries in which all Narnia was so happy that notable dances and feasts, or at most tournaments, were the only things that could be remembered, and every day and week had been better than the last. And as he went on, the picture of all those happy years, all the thousands of them, piled up in Jill's mind till it was rather like looking down from a high hill onto a rich, lovely plain full of woods and waters and cornfields, which spread away and away till it got thin and misty from distance. (LB, Chapter 8)

So I'd say that although it may not be a specific "magical protection", there does seem to be something about Narnia that makes it less prone to corruption than most other lands, or worlds, are. Is it Aslan's special favour, or something else we're not told about? I don't think there's a definite answer to that.

Something else I notice too, thinking about the whole series, is that all Narnia's major enemies — the ones that bring the most harm and misery and (in LB) the whole world's eventual destruction — are from outside the land of Narnia itself. Jadis / the White Witch, the Telmarines, the Green Witch, the Calormenes... they're all outsiders of various kinds, not indigenous Narnians. There are of course individual Narnian creatures who turn to evil, like Nikabrik and Shift and Ginger — or even Mr Tumnus when he initially sides with the White Witch — but they never seem to gain a huge following among their fellow Narnians. (Even Shift, who's probably the most corrupt native Narnian we ever meet, doesn't really plan anything himself beyond using Puzzle-dressed-as-Aslan to get whatever he personally wants. It's the Calormenes who subsequently use him as a tool in their own plot to conquer Narnia.) There's never a time when any significant numbers of Narnians turn bad and wreak evil and destruction in Narnia themselves. 

So it could be argued that for most of its history, Narnia is a much easier land to rule than any others we know of, simply because there's so little innate evil there. Which means that most of the time, there's very little for the Kings and/or Queens to do beyond generally ensuring that all the various peoples and beasts keep the peace and treat each other fairly and stay kind and decent and happy. That, I think, at least partly accounts for why it's easy to become a King or Queen in Narnia — because something about Narnia itself means it's not a hugely difficult job. 

@courtenay  "But as you'll have seen from this discussion, quite a lot of other members of the Narnia fandom — if that term means all Narnia fans collectively, not just those in a particular fan fic writing community — are happy with Caspian's canonical relationship as it is, or at least happy to imagine that there is far more to Ramandu's daughter as a person than the unfortunately scanty amount of attention she gets in the actual Narnia books." 

Coming from a Pinterest visit here and I fell into the rabbit hole that's called Casmund, you know people shipping Caspian and Edmund. LOOK, I have no problem with that kind of relationship in general but we do know Caspian and Edmund were like brothers so it's not possible... Susan would somehow work better if she didn't have to go back but at least maybe a woman like Susan. I mean Caspian had more screen time with those characters than his own wife... that says something. People literally try to find anyone besides his wife. I'm saying that from experience. I think that people from the book series don't really care to ship Caspian I think they focus on other stuff of this franchise. But I also think that book fans ship him with Lucy (sick but it happens).

I think just everyone sees from the books and movies that Caspian is indeed a very interested character with a good arc and a very good developed story and then the canon romance was, "get the pretty princess from the island, love at first sight, there." It feels disconcerted so people both books and movie fans have the need to fill a void which is basically character arc and romance with context. I know that romance wasn't really intended for Narnia but personally I'll always have Aravis and Car in my heart. Some may feel it like you're going to a nice gourmet restaurant, you're given a bon fillet and a fine wine and you at least expect for dessert a nice cheesecake or a pasta but they give you a candy bar from Walmart... you understand now? 

I wasn't intending to continue this topic because I know there is another thing discussed but I just thought about it and remembered your comment. I hope I explained well the fans' perspective.  

@hermit   Another question of course is where the followers of Jadis we saw in LWW actually came from, as there's no hint of their existence in TMN. I can think of two possible explanations. Either they were originally Narnians Jadis corrupted and twisted (similar to the way Melkor made Orcs by corrupting captured Elves in Middle Earth) or they are evil creatures she found a way of bringing into Narnia from some other world. It might even be both.

Looking at LWW, where Jadis summons her followers to her killing Aslan, there is quite a list of who they were in chapters 14 (Triumph of the Witch) & 15 (Deeper Magic from before the beginning of time). Some you might be familiar with, such as Ogres, wolves, & bull-headed men, but others are spirits of poisonous trees & plants. Quite a few, like Incubuses, Wraiths, Horrors or Spectres are either alternate names for ghosts or nightmares. Wooses might be another way of saying "wusses", whilst Orknies might be corrupted Orkney "chooks"*, for all I know. Ettins might be some sort of creature that comes from Ettinsmuir, which we finally visit in The Silver Chair, whilst a Hag is just an unflattering term for a dehumanised old woman, and that didn't start with Jadis. Neither did Minotaurs, Ogres or Werewolves, the last of which were not mentioned in LWW, I notice, though a Hag & a Werewolf turns up in Prince Caspian. And I've absolutely no idea what is meant by "Efreets".

 I'd agree with "both" for an answer, when Jadis was a nightmare, herself, who'd poison anything. But some terms used, like Ogres, Minotaurs, Hags & Werewolves are well outside of Narnia, being part of Classical, European and British folklore. C.S. Lewis was a Professor of English for Oxford and later, Cambridge. I believe he knew quite a bit about folklore, himself, and besides George Macdonald's books, I wonder if he also knew about Andrew Lang's collections of international fairytales. Another interesting collector of folklore was Sabine Baring Gould, who, in addition to hymns like Onward Christian Soldiers, also wrote much about British & European folklore, including the Book of Werewolves.

* chickens, ie domestic fowl. 

Posted by: @thef-maria

I wasn't intending to continue this topic because I know there is another thing discussed but I just thought about it and remembered your comment. I hope I explained well the fans' perspective.  

You've explained (repeatedly) the perspective of some fans, those who are convinced that Caspian needs a more interesting and exciting romantic arc than the canonical one, and devote their time to inventing alternative stories for him. As you may have picked up from the discussions here, not all Narnia fans worldwide feel the same way about Caspian and Ramandu's daughter, or even necessarily care much about this issue one way or the other.

And again, we're getting off topic.  

I think Aslan chooses rulers who will be right for the job. Many children have a pretty strong sense of right and wrong. They may  not follow it themselves but they sure expect others to follow it. Many child's games are about protecting and fighting against evil. That would give them a good start. Also I rather suspect the Pevensies read the right books and thus would have an idea of what to do. Aslan asks Frank a series of questions and Frank's answers show that he will be the kind of king Aslan wants. They are to take care of their subjects. They are not to conquer lands and oppress people. Honestly, I think the weakest king of Narnia is Tirian who was brought up to the role. Maybe the Pevensies and Frank and Helen are good kings and queens because they are thrown into it. Not knowing the "normal" way they are able to find their own way and will work hard to get it right.

Oooo, you've all given such awesome answers to this question! English professor here, and I'll add one more idea. Lewis believed in the Medieval "Great Chain of Being" whereby everything and everyone had their proper place in the hierarchy. Everyone has someone to whom they need to submit and someone/something over which they're naturally supposed to rule. That order goes something like: God, men (human males), women (human females), angels and other supernatural beings, children, slaves (yup, in the ancient/Medieval scheme, I know), higher-order animals (mammals), lower-order animals (birds, reptiles), insects, plants, minerals. 

So it's really easy to become a king or queen in Narnia if you're human. There are so few, and it's their natural, God-given divine right. I talk about it here a bit, in case you're interested: https://youtu.be/aO1bkOo0LuY.  

@drh So it's really easy to become a king or queen in Narnia if you're human. There are so few, and it's their natural, God-given divine right.

Or is it really so easy? Yes, it might have seemed easy whilst that Tree of Protection was still alive, but once it was gone, there was no longer anything to stop Jadis' return. As the White Witch she kept Narnia under her thrall, and was so fearsome that the Calormenes to the south of Archenland, knew better than to try going anywhere near those northern lands. 

In Narnia, itself, amongst the poor animals, some rhymes of lore & hope still remained, about Cair Paravel, and its four thrones. But one of the would-be occupants of those four thrones betrayed the three others & Aslan, himself. To rescue Edmund from the consequences of his misdoings, Aslan paid the Supreme Sacrifice, just like Jesus was crucified by the Romans, in place of Barabbas, an insurgent, and probably a murderer, having been found guilty by Pontius Pilate as a social subverter (that is to say, "Jesus Christ frightened the horses"). Noel Gaiman said, starting his short story, "The Problem with Susan" about one scene in LWW, where the White Witch was conferring with Aslan, that if an onlooker didn't know about the crucifixion, or what Aslan was preparing to do, then they have no reason to believe there was a difference between Aslan & the White Witch, and all the reader is left with is The Wardrobe.

But the White Witch seemed to have had her uses, in keeping off the Calormenes up until King Lune's reign in Archenland. Once she had gone, in HHB, King Lune's castle at Anvard in Archenland, mainly a buffer state, was soon besieged by Rabadash the Ridiculous, after his would-be bride, Susan, had fled Tashbaan along with her younger brother, Edmund, Sallowpad and Mr Tumnus. Aravis, another runaway bride-to-be, along with Shasta, pushed on by Aslan, saved the day, and I could imagine that directly afterwards, the Pevensies' long 15 year reign drew to an end, when they returned to the Professor's house.

Eventually after that time of peace & prosperity, another mob of humans came out of the West, called Telmarines, whose long reign oppressed the native Narnians, until Prince Caspian was forced to turn to them once Miraz' own wife, Prunaprismia, presented him with his very own son & heir. All the Pevensies, drawn by Susan's magic horn, returned to help Prince Caspian overturn King Miraz's regime in the "Great War of Deliverance", and with Aslan's guidance, to establish a more equitable type of rule. But King Caspian's good times weren't to last, after he found the remaining Seven Missing Lords, with Lucy, Edmund & Eustace, going along with him, their very own VDT holiday cruise.  When Caspian's Queen was killed, having led a traditional maying celebration, & when his son & heir, Rilian subsequently vanished, ten dreary years were to follow for an increasingly ailing King Caspian. Enter Eustace & Jill, given four signs to follow, who with help from Aslan did rescue Prince Rilian from LOTGK's clutches, returning him to Cair Paravel, just in the nick of time to avert another invasion by earthmen, under the command of LOTGK, this time around.

But when Shift the Ape, in favour of progress & the easy life, sold out Narnia to Calormene traders, Narnia was done.

@twigs  Honestly, I think the weakest king of Narnia is Tirian who was brought up to the role.

No, I disagree. Tirian & Narnia, itself, were sold out & undermined by Shift the Ape, using Puzzle, clad in a lion's pelt to fool Narnians into a fake way of life, which brought in the Calormenes. Like Constantine XI Palaiologos at the 29th May in 1453 fall of Constantinople, ending the Byzantine Empire, he did his best to resist the inevitable end of Narnia, falling in battle, along with Rishda Tarkaan, in his case. 

Both Telmarines and Calormenes were of human origins. At the end of PC, Aslan explains the origins of the Telmarines, who fell into Narnia from a cave in a South Pacific Island, it would seem. But the Calormenes had been in Calormen for some considerable time, even before the White Witch. Who were they? Once they succeeded in taking over Narnia, & Archenland as well, any remaining magic completely vanished and Narnia was finished. 

The greatest difficulties in ruling Narnia, were basically & increasingly other humans, you could say.