Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

 

Add on another 17 years or more for this son to grow up sufficiently to appreciate picnicking on a lovely day when he should have been working with his dad to learn the ropes

I've seen this sort of comment a couple of times on this thread and it really annoys me. Are we really going to criticise Rillian and his mother for having a picnic on a nice day? Are kings and queens and princes allowed no time for relaxation at all?

Perhaps we should criticise King Lune in HBB for going out with a hunting party and not being in Anvard attending to his duties so he couldn't be nearly caught on the hop by Rabadash! But then Cor would probably not have reached Anvard in time and with the castle unprepared for an attack the Calormenes would have succeeded. 

Or should we criticise the Pevensies for hunting the White Stag rather than staying at Cair Paravel to attend to ruling Narnia? In that case they wouldn't have returned then to our world, which some fans seems to think would have been better. But if they hadn't returned at some point their parents would never know (in this life) what happened to them and the Professor would surely have found himself in very serious trouble.

Honestly, even royalty are entitled to SOME down time!

Posted by: @hermit

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

 

Add on another 17 years or more for this son to grow up sufficiently to appreciate picnicking on a lovely day when he should have been working with his dad to learn the ropes

I've seen this sort of comment a couple of times on this thread and it really annoys me. Are we really going to criticise Rillian and his mother for having a picnic on a nice day? Are kings and queens and princes allowed no time for relaxation at all?

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the queen and her party were "A-Maying", a traditional celebration of spring in early May. 
Even in the mid 20th century in some areas there were Mayday celebrations, with a young lady crowned The Queen of the May. It might involve feasting, music and a few romantic moments among the single ladies and gentlemen. 
This sort of cultural detail is in the background of a number of the books, but is omitted without explanation in a number of adaptations. The European traditions don't seem to be included in what Disney et al serve up. 

The queen led it, and it would have been a treat for her younger courtiers. It was not meant to be indicating that she had a lazy, self-indulgent lifestyle. 

https://hilarywhite.substack.com/p/going-a-maying-the-crown-of-the-year

To get back to the main topic we don't know much about Ramandu's Daughter simply because we don't need to; it's not required for the story. There are many other characters who are drawn equally sketchily. Lord Rhoop for example; we known next to nothing about him except that he was tormented for years by dreams, and even with that we never learn any details, because they're not really necessary. 

Likewise we know next to nothing about the Pevensie children's parents. In fact we know a lot more about the Scrubs than we do about them. Apart from a brief cameo appearance in TLB and an equally brief aside about them by Peter earlier in that book they barely get a mention. In VDT we learn that they think Susan, not being good at school work but otherwise grown up for her age would get more out of America than the others (which suggests their decisions were not always the wisest!) and in PC we get a second hand comment via Edmund about being at the mercy of the telephone, but aside from that very little. I don't think they're even mentioned at all in LWW. If knowing so little about Caspian's wife is a flaw we should equally see knowing so little about the senior Pevensies as a flaw. But I don't see either as a flaw. I see them as sticking to the main point of the story, as economy in writing, a quality I very much admire.

The OP seems top hold to the modern notion that the love lives of fictional characters are of such overwhelming importance that we need to be informed in detail about them. That is something Lewis would never have agreed with. Romance is not a primary concern in Narnia; it's not even a secondary concern. When it does appear it's incidental and of marginal significance at best. 

The most important thing in Narnia is the relationship of the characters with Aslan. Agape (divine love) is far more important than eros (romantic love); even storge (family affection) is of lesser importance, which is why Susan's apostasy causes such a breach with her siblings in TLB. 

If you want romance in Narnia don't look in the books; look in the Narnia section of ao3. I wish you luck finding something you can stomach in that cesspit of blasphemy and depravity. 

@hermit I honestly don’t know how this started tbf, it’s the least of my concerns when it comes to Caspian’s family. 

It doesn’t really have anything to do with my statements about Ramandu’s Daughter, other than the fact that she was killed that way. It was merely a plan from the Lady of the Green Kirtle. Nothing to do with the way Caspian and Lilliandil met.

I think people assumed that because I believe Lilliandil was never a dynamic character or actually a character at all, I find it bad that she died in a picnic, as if I mentioned she should die in a war or something. I never actually mentioned that because the way she died never connected to her role in the early story lol. 

@hermit

Posted by: @hermit

The OP seems top hold to the modern notion that the love lives of fictional characters are of such overwhelming importance that we need to be informed in detail about them.

I haven’t talked about Frank and Helen at all though I’ve talked about this because Caspian is an active character and a great one of two books… I wouldn’t rant the same way about Frank and Helen because we know not much of them. I never really expected to find romance in Narnia but I’d honestly rather see none than what we had in the Dawn Trader.

I know Lewis didn’t intend romance and if we didn’t have any I honestly would feel better. It would be good if Ramandu’s Daughter didn’t exist and Ramandu was the main guide for the characters… then there could be a small mention of "Caspian’s Queen", Rillian’s story would be the same and the fans could let their imagination wander. No romance added. Done. Alright? 

I don’t think there’s anything else to be said at this point and I don’t think I need to add something I haven’t added. I’ve said everything I needed to say when it comes to this "romance".

@hermit   I've seen this sort of comment a couple of times on this thread and it really annoys me. Are we really going to criticise Rillian and his mother for having a picnic on a nice day? Are kings and queens and princes allowed no time for relaxation at all?

Er, sorry, your annoyance is largely my fault, I gather.    And as a bit of a Devil's Advocate, I've been wondering just how long I'd have to wait for someone to say just what you are saying in the quotation.    In real life, of course, with news reports, journalists & readers' comments in mind, I'd have to answer no No NOOOO, not at all. Unless it were the writers, themselves, in charge, of course.    ESPECIALLY kings, queens and princes. And when King Caspian was too busy to attend this traditional maying, himself along with his wife & son, due how much work he needed to do, it does make him look a bit of a workaholic, so in that case I would have to say yes, yes, yes.    

In another thread called "Why is it so easy to become a king and queen in Narnia"?  I was of the opinion that however easy it might have seemed to be at first, the further in time we went through the Narnia books the more difficult it would be. There were the Calormenes next door to Archenland, kept in check by the White Witch, but ready to take over once she'd gone. There were the Telmarines who subjugated Narnia, until King Miraz went too far. @thef-maria also points out how hardworking Caspian is, whilst Walden's VDT shows not only how Caspian misses his own father, but also the couple of times where he behaves just like Miraz. In this discussion about her, Walden's depiction of Lilliandil tends to seem like an "npc" {not up with the meaning of such acronyms}, resembling a detested "Sleeping Beauty" and too insipid to eventually be Caspian's Queen. I've still to get "a round tuit" to re-watch the BBC version, which retains Ramandu, himself, as well as his daughter, who is left all alone in Walden's film to manage all the advice etc, all by herself

In the book VDT in a chapter called The Three Sleepers, the first thing Liliandil says to Caspian & his companions is  "Travellers who have come from far to Aslan's Table"  said the girl [not woman, I notice, therefore likely to be the same age as Caspian, give or take], "Why do you not eat and drink?" Then there is a discussion in which Edmund says: ... "When I look in your face, I can't help believing all you say: but then that is what might happen with a witch, too". How are we to know that you are a friend?" 'Lilliandil' replies "You can't know", said the girl. "You can only believe or not"

The exchange about Sleeping Beauty goes something like this:

"But how does the food keep? asked the practical Eustace.

"It is eaten & renewed every day," said the girl. "This you will see". 

"And what are we to do about the Sleepers"? asked Caspian. "In the world from which my friends come" (here he nodded at Eustace and the Pevensies) "they have a story of a prince or a king coming to a castle where all the people lay in an enchanted sleep. In that story he could not dissolve the enchantment until he kissed the Princess"

"But here," said the girl, "it is different. Here, he cannot kiss the Princess until he has dissolved the enchantment." 

"Then", said Caspian, "in the name of Aslan show me, how to set about that work at once." 

"My father will teach you that", said the girl. 

"Your father"! said everyone. "Who is he?"

The trouble is that the Sleepers, themselves, are no Sleeping Beauties.  

@coracle This sort of cultural detail is in the background of a number of the books, but is omitted without explanation in a number of adaptations. The European traditions don't seem to be included in what Disney et al serve up. The queen led it, and it would have been a treat for her younger courtiers. It was not meant to be indicating that she had a lazy, self-indulgent lifestyle. 

Thank you for your explanation, @coracle. I'd forgotten about how in the Northern Hemisphere, maying was traditional. The old Beltane, in Irish, & Cèitean, I suppose, in Scots Gaelic. On my own wedding day on 1st May in 1971, I would be teased with jokes about dressing my bridesmaids in red dresses with hammers & sickles, like the USSR flag, whilst others said my poor bridegroom would be crying "MayDay, MayDay", all down the aisle. But yes, you are right about Disney etc, who seem to think that including at least some teenage romance is compulsory in their adaptations.  

But all the same, even in Silver Chair's fictional Narnia, I still think that people should be free & able to celebrate their traditional festivities, whether indoors or in forest glades or on a beach, or attending other such community gatherings without some prejudiced killjoy or other, murdering them, whatever they say their motivation might be.  

We don’t know if Ramandu’s daughter went to Aslan’s country after she died.  She was hunted like prey by the Lady of the Green Kirtle when the Lady was a serpent and Rilian was held captive by her. But what happened to her after she died, assuming that she had a soul?  Lewis was under no obligation to tell us what happened to his characters after they die.  But it would be more satisfying to the reader if there were a kind of closure. At least it could be said that her death was avenged by Rilian. After she died was she mentioned again in any of the books? 

Posted by: @narnian78

We don’t know if Ramandu’s daughter went to Aslan’s country after she died.

Um, we do, actually. She is specifically mentioned among the people from Narnia's history who are there in Aslan’s country in the final chapter — though still only identified as "the Star's daughter", and as Rilian's mother and Caspian's wife, not by any name of her own! 

@Courtenay

Yes apparently I missed that reference.

Perhaps C. S. Lewis should have said more about her than just listing her.  Maybe I could be blamed for missing it. Actually I am a little angry with Lewis with creating a character just to be on a list or not much more than that. I’m having a bad day. It’s a great way to start a new year.  🙁

Posted by: @narnian78

It is a minimalist reference, which is strange, considering that she was a queen and Caspian’s wife, and not even given a name.

Well, there it is, and that's what this entire discussion has been about. Ramandu’s daughter, in the books, is never given a name, and we are never told anything about her upbringing, her personality, her mother, or anything else about her as a character, either when she first meets Caspian and the others, or after she marries him. As we've seen here, some readers find that unfortunate but can shrug it off; some find it offensive and write their own fan fic in which Caspian marries somebody else who's more exciting. That's just how it is. 

She wasn't even mentioned as being present in the closing scenes of The Last Battle.

Posted by: @cobalt-jade

She wasn't even mentioned as being present in the closing scenes of The Last Battle.

Did you actually see a film or television representation of the last book in the Narnia series? As far as I know, The Last Battle has never been filmed. 

Please let us all know. Because I did find the reference on page 167 of this 172-page story, the last chapter of which is Farewell to the Shadowlands. The paragraph begins by saying "Everyone you have ever heard of...seemed to be there. There was Glimfeather the Owl and Puddleglum the Marshwiggle and King Rilian the Disenchanted, and his mother the Star's daughter, and his great father, King Caspian, himself...

That is from the actual book. There is a reason for C.S. Lewis not giving "Lilliandil" a name, even though he might have done so to help filmmakers of VDT in 2009. Especially when she was murdered, which I only thought about a month ago. Yes, the victims from December 14th were all named, most poignantly, the completely innocent 10-year-old girl Matilda, named for a song very closely associated with Australia, Waltzing Matilda, which ends with "You'll never catch me alive," said he. And his ghost can be heard as you pass by that billabong. You'll come a Waltzing Matilda with me". Matilda will remain forever as an Australian, just like the hero who helped put a stop to the gunmen, Ahmad el Ahmad, I think his name is. 

I don't know the names of the people massacred in mosques in Christchurch in 2019, & I'll likely forget the names of the other victims of the Bondi massacre. But all of them were somebody's daughter or son, somebody's mother or father, somebody's sister or brother. Just like Ramandu's daughter, King Caspian's Queen, and King Rillian's mother, who was sorely missed after her death. 

@narnian78 My entire point in this conversation is exactly that. That Lewis created a minor, meaningless character to be married to a well written and well structured character. Every time I mention this argument I get responded with the same thing “Lewis didn’t intent romance”. I get it, I understand it but I’d honestly rather if he didn’t add this at all. 

Posted by: @thef-maria

Every time I mention this argument I get responded with the same thing “Lewis didn’t intent romance”. I get it, I understand it but I’d honestly rather if he didn’t add this at all. 

Genuinely interested - is there a different answer you are looking for?

Seems like everyone agrees with you that she's not a fantastically well written character. Not sure what more there is to say about that 

Ramandu is much more interesting and important than his daughter, and he doesn’t even appear in the Walden Dawn Treader  movie. Lilliandil doesn’t say much though but only asks the crew if they would like her to change her form. They did get a good looking actress to play her, but she doesn’t do much else in the film than look pretty.  So in the movie we didn’t get much else from her than in the book.  She did make it to Aslan’s country, but did she do anything for Aslan?  We will never know because so few details are given about her life.   I guess there were other kings and queens of Narnia who didn’t do much, but not much is said about them, and Lewis didn’t waste much of his time on them. I would think the queen and wife of Caspian X would have done more to be remembered as a character.