Lilliandil must have been at least partially a star being the daughter of a retired star.   I always wondered what her mother was like. Is she even mentioned anywhere in the books?  Evidently Lilliandil lived for a while on her father’s island before meeting Caspian. So there was always something magical and mysterious about her. It would be nice if we knew something about her heritage, but Lewis may have decided to keep that a mystery along with much of her character. Still, it seems like he could have said more about her family since she was a queen who lived with Caspian, and she was the mother of Prince Rilian. The scene with Ramandu was so memorable that one wonders why Lewis didn’t say much about his daughter’s life on the island or anything about her childhood.

@narnian78 And since we don’t know much, there’s not much context. In my own eyes you can’t marry a character who appeared in two books and had an entire character arc with an npc. Which is pretty much what I’ve been saying a lot but I go get that indeed people want that context. I want a different queen. And Ao3 exists for that reason. 

Now Lilliandil’s mother is an interesting matter but we never got any sort of explanation. Since Ramandu was a star and Lilliandil was half star though I could suggest that either Lilliandil’s mother was a real human. In my story I have made a character named Liendar who is essentially Ramandu’s son and Lilliandil’s brother and to explain their family tree I’ll state that Ramandu had once a short relationship with a human woman, had her children but died eventually. 

@lions-mane-minotaur THIS. Thank you very much for summarizing my many many comments in one 😭. We do have Susan as a potential love interest for Caspian in the movies but people don’t like it because it’s not canon. It wasn’t a necessary addition but still a comfort zone for some. They did have more chemistry. 

At the same time, I’ve noticed that most of the fandom ship Caspian with anyone but his canon wife which… says a lot. Literally they pick Peter, Edmund and… even Lucy. As much as I disagree with the first two ships I can somehow understand them due to the time they had together but the Lucy one… no. Just no. It comes to show that there is indeed much unfulfilled space for Caspian’s love story that everyone wants to fill the gap with. 

Also I have introduced a possible love interest, named Ellita, in my story for Caspian. but he decides to be with Lilliandil, so that I’ll expand Ellita’s jealousy and anger into her ascension in queen hood. I could’ve just let him stay with Ellita because I indeed hate his relationship with Lilliandil but the more I grow the more complicated I want my stories… I’m too messy for a happily ever after at 21 😭

@waggawerewolf27

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

I wonder if her snoring was too much of a bother? And I also wonder if your dislike of Sleeping Beauty justifies LOTGK murdering said Sleeping Beauty, snoozing happily away, hypothetical stereotype though she might be? And who is LOTGK, anyway? Any relation to Jadis, the White Witch?

Nothing to do with that actually.

I relate Lilliandil to the sleeping beauty because in the VOTD Caspian uses that fairytale phrase “He cannot kiss the Princess until he has resolved the enchantments”, and it summarizes my personal dislike for the particular fairytale as a whole and as a "romantic" context in the book. 

Caspian had just met Lilliandil and he goes over like “I’ll kiss u cuz ur pretty” like the prince in the tale, has just saw a beautiful princess in her bed and kissed her just because she was pretty and that was supposed to be "true love kiss".

Now about the LOTGK: I think she decided to murder Lilliandil because it was a practical move to lure Rillian’s attention towards her. Though I would somehow understand if she decided to murder Caspian first because of his higher position and power and then she’d lure Rillian to her to like, eliminate Narnia’s current monarchy in its entirety. I don’t really care that much about the way she killed the queen on her sleep, could be many many ways. In my own book, the LOTGK conspires with some other villains, for a different purpose, political and cosmic, to murder Lilliandil and instead of a snake, a group of assassins invade the castle and kill her, not by poison but knives.  

Wether LOTGK has some relation to the white witch I don’t know. We never know. I explored that in my own book too but don’t want to expand more. 

Posted by: @waggawerewolf27

To some extent, this seemingly bridal image of female perfection remained as a stereotype, through to the 1980's, when the then Prince of Wales married someone who seemed a similarly ideally pure & kind "Princess of Wales" to many, especially journalists in the Media . When both marriages ended unhappily in reality, it is surely time to get rid of such one-dimensional stereotypical "fairytale" expectations of women even in art.

I think that indeed this stereotype ended at this particular point, in the 80’s-90’s where people have started to not feel shame in admitting that life wasn’t perfect and that couples had problems and imperfections. But Lewis characters were never perfect and to add an unnecessarily and unexplained perfect couple wasn’t really fitting. 

@narnian78 Lilliandil must have been at least partially a star being the daughter of a retired star.   I always wondered what her mother was like. Is she even mentioned anywhere in the books?  Evidently Lilliandil lived for a while on her father’s island before meeting Caspian

Yes, and though the likes of Paul Ford and others might have written about Lilliandil, I don't remember now what has been said about her, in such books. I still feel it was a mistake for Walden to leave out Ramandu, himself, out of that version of VDT. I do remember that Coriakin was supposed to have been a bit naughty for a star, so had to look after Dufflepuds as a punishment. 

@thef-maria I relate Lilliandil to the sleeping beauty because in the VOTD Caspian uses that fairytale phrase “He cannot kiss the Princess until he has resolved the enchantments”, and it summarizes my personal dislike for the particular fairytale as a whole and as a "romantic" context in the book. 

Whereas I merely related that particular episode to Ramandu's daughter's firmness of character, validating my own young choice to prioritise passing a coming final exam over rushing out, to romance my newly found husband to be, at the end of 1969. But it is also irresistible that C.S. Lewis, continuing the series after VDT, organise her death the way he did. I connect The Silver Chair with laziness versus perseverance, as I have said somewhere a page or two back on this thread.

But it has also crossed my mind that perhaps C.S Lewis was also mindful when writing that book, of Edmund Burke's saying:  The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men (people) to do nothing. And when Jill, Eustace & Puddleglum arrived in Underland, Prince Rillian seemed far too admiring of LOTGK, to even notice what she was trying to get him to do. 

Posted by: @thef-maria

That's it. Caspian is my favorite character and he deserved an actual character for a queen, not an NPC.

Posted by: @thef-maria

He has learned so much, he is a very good natured character that essentially he deserves a good structured romance and a partner that challenges his feelings and isn't there just because of idolization which as a person I really hate in storytelling.

Posted by: @thef-maria

He deserved a good love story which if we don't have we can only speculate.

For me, this is where I disagree.  I do not think the Chronicles of Narnia are romances. No one in these books deserves a good romance.

Posted by: @coracle

@thef-maria I think it's been stated clearly, by several posters, that a proper romance does NOT belong in a book for children. Lewis was wise not to try to write one. Before HHB [referring to Pevensies], his child characters were not old enough for them, and nor was Caspian in PC or much of VDT.

If readers want a teenage romance, the Narnia stories are the wrong place to look for it. 

As for Ramandu's daughter, her role is deliberately minor. There is attraction in the book, but no romance.

I echo this wholeheartedly.  When I read “Pride and Prejudice”, I did not think Lizzy deserved a great detective story with a puzzling crime to be solved.  She is not in that kind of story, and I do not demand it of Jane Austin.

Posted by: @thef-maria

@waggawerewolf27 Rillian's character arc actually contains enough dark and some mature themes which along with Aravis' situation, brings me to the argument many use in Lilliandil's appearance "Its a story made for kids!" We notice differently in many cases and Lewis himself has once stated that if a children's story isn't enjoyed by adults too then it isn't a good children's story.

But is the only way to write a good children’s story that is also enjoyable for adults to throw in a grandiose romance?  I enjoy watching Peppa Pig and Bluey with my son; both TV shows are made for children but can be enjoyed by adults.  Peppa Pig does not have any romance in it; and the lack of romance does not make it a story that cannot entertain adults alongside kids. Bluey does have subtle romance in it, though it is always when ‘Mum’ or ‘Dad’ do something considerate for the other one (usually in the context of a chaotic household) because they care for one another. It is very lite.  I do not think a children’s story needs to include a compelling romance to be enjoyable for adults.

 

Posted by: @thef-maria

I suppose I have big expectations from someone who has indeed written good, flawed and interesting characters and my main disappointment was as I stated that I wanted a good and compelling story for Caspian to fill his good character arc.

To me, Caspian had a good, compelling story and a good character arc in both Prince Caspian and The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.  I do not think Caspian’s ‘Romance’ is a part of his character arc in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (and more importantly, I am not convinced that it should have been). I think you are asking this story to be something it was never intended to be. Ramandu’s daughter is given less time on the page then Coriakin received. She is not a main character in the story and we know very little about her. I also know nothing about who Prince Rillian married, except that given he had descendants, he must have married someone.  I do not bemoan that Rillian deserved a better romance than C.S. Lewis gave him.

Puddleglum is a very compelling character (he seems so negative and gloomy, but he is really one of the bravest and wisest characters in the Narnian chronicles).  I do not regret that we never got a romance story for Puddleglum.  (Given, the nature of Marshwiggles, where Puddleglums is too ‘full of bounce and light hearted’ compared to other Marshwiggles, I suspect such a romance would either be exceptionally dull, or else the unexpectedly hilarious and warm-hearted romantic comedy we never knew we wanted.)  Again, I do not feel disappointed that Puddleglum never got the romance he deserved.

Posted by: @thef-maria

I mean, the romance in the movie is really short and couldn't work in the movies but the short romance in the books with Lilliandil disappointed me more because Caspian's love story could have been as compelling and interesting as his original story OR not displayed at all. A simple mention of Caspian marrying a queen wouldn't make any difference, Rillian's arc would still be the same. But the "kiss the princess" thing when they barely even met had me eye rolling

I do agree with this.  If the attraction between Caspian and Ramandu’s Daughter had not been included in the book, I do not think I would have missed it.  Others have commented that this was how romances were written at the time that Lewis was writing – to me it seems like a non-romance romance.

If we were simply told that Caspian later married some random person who we’d never met it would have made little difference.  (On the other hand, we never really meet Ramandu’s daughter properly – so to me it is much the same thing.)

I remember George Lucas commenting on the romance between Han Solo and Princess Leia that he was basing it on romances in movies during the golden age of Hollywood. His description was that in that era, romances involved the guy saying, “Hi, I am the hero!” To which the girl would reply, “Fancy that!  I am the heroine.” The guy then says, “Do you know that the hero and the heroine are supposed to fall in love?” They then kiss and the scene fades to black.  Now, I do not know how accurate this portrayal is, but it sounds absolutely pathetic and shallow.  As a kid in the 1980s, I remember almost every movie had to have an obligatory romantic comedy element (even action movies, spy movies and boxing movies), they were usually token-romances with as little screen-time invested in them as possible.   If the story of Caspian and Ramandu’s daughter is intended to be romantic, it does strike me as having about the same amount of depth as these stories.

"And what are we to do about the Sleepers?" asked Caspian. "In the world from which my friends come" (here he nodded at Eustace and the Pevensies) "they have a story of a prince or a king coming to a castle where all the people lay in an enchanted sleep. In that story he could not dissolve the enchantment until he had kissed the Princess."

The more I think about it, the more this dialog bothers me.  Caspian is on a quest to find and possibly rescue the 7 lost lords.  Upon finding 3 of them in an enchanted sleep, his first thought is admittedly partly about rescuing them from their enchanted sleep, but it seems to have more to do with kissing the pretty girl.  It is not really Caspian’s most noble moment.  In the movie, “About a Boy” there is a scene where Hugh Grant’s very sleezy character goes to a hospital because another character’s mother wants to commit suicide. When a  nurse suggests that the unconscious  woman’s child should spend the night with Hugh Grant and a woman his character is attracted to, this guy responds, “Right, my place or yours?”  It is so gross and inappropriate and insensitive.  These two scenes oddly remind me of one another.

Thef Maria, I never liked Ramandu's daughter either, and I'm an intensive student of the books. I recognize that she fits in well with the plot and themes of VODT -- modern characters and their encounters with archaic mythic elements -- but as a character, she never comes to life. She wows everyone with her beauty and otherworldliness, but evinces no inner character. I don't think she even smiles during her first encounter with the party. She plays the ice queen, the disinterested observer. And as in fairytales, Caspian, because he's the one most attracted, is to be the one to crack her. But Lewis doesn't show us that cracking -- it's all offscreen.

(In other words, she's being a tease.)

It's almost like Aslan came to her and Ramandu before the party landed and told her "There's a blonde prince soon to arrive at your island, and you're going to get him to marry you. Play hard to get at first, then drop him a few crumbs. I'll see that he returns to you." 

It really is too bad, because her lack of personality could have solved with just a few sentences. "I care for the shipwrecked sailors who wash up on these shores." for example. This shows her kindness. "I observe the stars with my father, and they tell me all there is to know about the world." This shows curiosity. Stuff like that. I wonder why Lewis shied away from that. Or, maybe she could show some vulnerability... being a little afraid of Caspian and the party, because she hasn't met humans before, and then warming up to them. In other words, having her own little character arc. But no.

Their romance did leave a sour taste in my mouth. But overall I love the book. 

Do you think Ramandu’s daughter should have been named in the Walden movie version of Dawn Treader? The name Lilliandil is perhaps better than no name at all, but it doesn’t do her much good when her father doesn’t appear at all in the film. She is almost without identity in the film, and there isn’t much more to her in the book.  When she dies in The Silver Chair  it is tragic for her son Prince Rilian, but we don’t know her well enough to fully experience his loss. It was almost as if The Lady of the Green Kirtle had done away with someone we didn’t know very well.  Rilian under her spell seemed more tragic with the Lady possessing him. I think I was more satisfied when Rilian was set free from the Lady’s enchantment than with Ramandu’s daughter the Queen being in the story since the good vs. evil conflict was more completely resolved.

I think Waldon media wanted to make her more of a character - thus they gave her a name to indicate that she wasn’t just a “Curley’s Wife” (see Of Mice and of Men - where Curley’s Wife is never given a name in the whole book other than “Curley’s Wife” to show that she is just considered Curley’s possession and is not honoured as a worthwhile human being in her own right.)

In the book, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, it comes across as somewhat natural that we never hear her name, as the flow of the conversation doesn’t go that way.

Giving her a name in the movie was ironic as they did not do anything for her character beyond giving her a name.

@cobalt-jade but as a character, she never comes to life. She wows everyone with her beauty and otherworldliness, but evinces no inner character.

It depends on what is meant as "character". Yes, Lilliandil does have a name, courtesy of Walden's VDT & Doug Gresham, but as a minor character in a children's novel, character may be deduced from only snippets here and there, not necessarily in VDT, itself, but also later, in Silver Chair. And some of these characteristics, including that "sleeping beauty" exchange have nothing to do with romance or even personal preferences but do have everything to do with leadership and Caspian being king. 

@cobalt-jade I don't think she even smiles during her first encounter with the party. She plays the ice queen, the disinterested observer. And as in fairytales, Caspian, because he's the one most attracted, is to be the one to crack her. But Lewis doesn't show us that cracking -- it's all offscreen

I'd call it professional ethics, which matters, whether it is the professionalism of the Aboriginal "welcome to country" of the Ngunnawal Elder, that I mentioned on the previous page, whether it is in day-to-day front-desk transactions with the public, or whether in emergency situations, such as at Bondi, on Dec 14. In other words, "without favour without prejudice" is essential to doing a good job. Lilliandil's polite reply should have set Caspian straight. (ie Get on with it, mate! )

 @davidd Upon finding 3 of them in an enchanted sleep, his first thought is admittedly partly about rescuing them from their enchanted sleep, but it seems to have more to do with kissing the pretty girl. It is not really Caspian’s most noble moment

Yes, that whole "sleeping beauty" thing Caspian said, was basically a distraction from his getting on with the main part of his job. And that is why when Lilliandil, herself, literally, goes to sleep on the job in Silver Chair, as the Parliament of Owls relates to Eustace & Jill, I can't help thinking she let down Narnia, Caspian & mainly her son. Especially someone who was supposed to be a star's daughter helping to rule a country of talking animals, she should have had more knowledge of bushcraft than that.  

@cobalt-jade   It really is too bad, because her lack of personality could have solved with just a few sentences. "I care for the shipwrecked sailors who wash up on these shores."

Er, who were those "shipwrecked sailors" who were washed up on Ramandu Island's shores? Not Revilian, Argoz and Mavramorn likely to be the one who said, "pass the mustard please"? Yes, she could have given them a shave or at least a haircut every now and then, that is, if her father, Ramandu, had physically given her a hand. But I guess you are well aware of how people carry on about being manhandled unnecessarily these days.     The trouble is with the movies, they have time limits on the length of the movie, and whether the Walden version or the BBC version of VDT, they did not have the time to develop minor characters like Lilliandil, or Ramandu, himself, whilst introducing other less relevant characters to the story, like that VDT stowaway, for instance.  

@cobalt-jade Thank you so much! 👏🏻

This discussion has been going for months and only now I see people actually coming up with reasonable arguments other than the same thing over and over “Lewis didn’t want romance.”

Posted by: @thef-maria

@waggawerewolf27 I haven't been in NarniaWeb since last year so didn't really catch that.

But yeah, her main job has always been to welcome visitors. Which brings me back to stating that she didn't have much life experience to suddenly be given the title of queen and have the responsibility for the Narnian people. But I said all these in another post so I won't rant about it here again. 

Having also commented about every other possible angle to that "sleeping beauty" or 'welcoming visitors" moment in VDT, that your posts brought to my mind, I have to admit that Cinderella, & its many derivatives, was the fairy tale that annoyed me most for all sorts of reasons I needn't mention here. As for Lilliandil, it isn't the life experience she had or didn't have in VDT that troubles me, it is more her failure to capitalise on the long experience of being Caspian's Queen Consort that she did have in the Silver Chair, as I've also pointed out. As far as I can gather, that was 15 years after their marriage before she and King Caspian produced their son, Rillian.

Add on another 17 years or more for this son to grow up sufficiently to appreciate picnicking on a lovely day when he should have been working with his dad to learn the ropes, and also for him to start noticing the ladies, all of a sudden, that would have to be at least 32 years. Caspian would have been only 17 or 18 when he met "Lilliandil", & maybe as much as 20 when they finally married. So, when she died, he was about 52 years old. Not really that old to be positively frail and dying 10 years later, when Eustace & Jill enter the Cair Paravel picture, sent by Aslan.

@cobalt-jade (In other words, she's being a tease.) It's almost like Aslan came to her and Ramandu before the party landed and told her "There's a blonde prince soon to arrive at your island, and you're going to get him to marry you. Play hard to get at first, then drop him a few crumbs. I'll see that he returns to you." 

  Surely not the same Aslan who brought together Shasta and Aravis in HHB? Of course, finding the 7 lords was the task Caspian was charged with. Lord Bern was already at home in the Lone Islands, and two others, Octesian & Restimar, had perished. But returning the four remaining lords to Narnia can't have been easy, logistically speaking. Quite frankly, I can't see Aslan as a matchmaker, only with a lot of luck.   There are too many marriages, said to be made in heaven but which turn out to have been made in hell.  

Posted by: @thef-maria

This discussion has been going for months and only now I see people actually coming up with reasonable arguments other than the same thing over and over “Lewis didn’t want romance.”

Ummm... if you look back, you may find there are others here who totally agree with the basic point that Ramandu's daughter is strangely characterless and undeveloped, and that it's a pity Lewis chose to have Caspian's wife come across as a vague and bland trope instead of a fully fleshed-out and interesting character. I know I said something like that near the start of this discussion.

It's just that for me and most other Narnia fans I've ever heard from on this subject, it doesn't spoil the overall story — it's just a mild disappointment, not something that really forms the grounds for passionate debates, or for writing alternative versions in which Caspian finds someone else who's much more exciting. Many of us, I think, can just shrug it off as a minor flaw in an overall wonderful classic fantasy series for children, rather than getting stuck on it to the point where it overwhelms everything that's worthwhile about Narnia. But each to their own. 

@courtenay I don’t know why you’d think that way and say I’m "stuck" in it, I’m talking about it because this is what the conversation is about in this topic. 

Now I don’t have much more to say I’m just responding to comments and I don’t think I care as much as I did when this conversation was going between us two as well.

Just because of a lame romance doesn’t mean I dislike Narnia in general. Lately I’ve been mostly developing a fic between Edmund Pevensie and younger Princess Cirilla (from the Witcher) and put this topic behind me. But I like to stay active in the conversation 🙂

Posted by: @thef-maria

@courtenay I don’t know why you’d think that way and say I’m "stuck" in it, I’m talking about it because this is what the conversation is about in this topic. 

Well, maybe because — as you've said — this discussion, which you started, has been going on for months, and has been going over pretty much the same points over and over again since the beginning, that's all.