@waggawerewolf27 Am I very fond of Suspian? No. But I think it’s a good distraction from Caspian’s short and lame romance with Ramandu’s daughter in the books for me. Had to see actors acting like having chemistry than this fairy tale esque lame romance. 

@jasmine_tarkheena Rillian’s character arc is way more engaging and compelling than the character Ramandu’s daughter could ever be. His story always fascinates me but Ramandu’s daughter is simply an npc. Such a shame Caspian’s interesting story was wasted for such a lame romance. Then again Rillian’s story is more interesting. 

@thef-maria I think it's been stated clearly, by several posters, that a proper romance does NOT belong in a book for children. Lewis was wise not to try to write one. Before HHB [referring to Pevensies],  his child characters were not old enough for them, and nor was Caspian in PC or much of VDT.

If readers want a teenage romance, the Narnia stories are the wrong place to look for it.  

As for Ramandu's daughter, her role is deliberately minor. There is attraction in the book, but no romance. You seem to have decided that a book must measure up to a film adaptation of 50 years later. Is this fair to the writer?

@thef-maria Yes, and even Shasta/Cor and Aravis were not old enough for romance in HHB, though they eventually end up marrying each other. Even then, it's more like the c-plot rather than the a-plot. So romance was never the focus of Narnia, not even in-universe.

As many of us have pointed out about Ramandu's daughter, yes, there is an attraction between her and Caspian, and it is stated they marry. But that doesn't mean there has to be a romance as the overall focus. It is more something that happens along the way.

Sure, a boy and girl can like each other and be close friends—they can even end up married—without the narrative needing to dwell on mooning glances and stolen touches. Real life doesn't always unfold in grand romantic gestures, and neither should fiction; I have some close friends who are guys, and while we like each other, it never gets anywhere romantic; we're just close friends and that's it. Narnia’s strength lies in how naturally these relationships develop, especially with Caspian and Ramandu's daughter—their attraction is treated as a given, not a spectacle. The story doesn’t pause to dissect their feelings, because the plot isn’t about that.

@coracle First of all I want to state that none of my opinions are a disrespect to Lewis in any way and honestly I don’t think I disagree with anything else he used in the stories.

Some of the themes he has used through are indeed more mature than this "romance" like Aravis’ situation. In fact I like him so much as a writer and this romance is the only liability I see in the books. 

I don’t have to agree with everything someone writes. Not everyone agrees with everything I write and they do have the freedom to express themselves about my stories.

Now is the Susan x Caspian ship an op or something worth watching in the prince Caspian movie? Meh… but in my eyes it’s more of a comfort zone to remember that Caspian in a way has laid eyes on true chemistry and not some idolised barbie Mary Sue.

@waggawerewolf27 I can't really say I'm very enthusiastic about Suspian. I mean, the romance in the movie is really short and couldn't work in the movies but the short romance in the books with Lilliandil disappointed me more because Caspian's love story could have been as compelling and interesting as his original story OR not displayed at all. A simple mention of Caspian marrying a queen wouldn't make any difference, Rillian's arc would still be the same. But the "kiss the princess" thing when they barely even met had me eye rolling

Assuming that at least some people have had The Voyage of the Dawn Treader read to them during their childhood or perhaps read the book themselves isn’t the appearance of Ramandu’s daughter memorable? I still remember it decades later from when the book was read by my elementary school teacher in the fifth grade. So evidently Lewis intended the character to be at least somewhat memorable. He did say that she was beautiful and kind, but you wonder why he didn’t develop her character more. If movies make more of her it may be taking liberties that Lewis never intended.  It is something like Peter Jackson did with Arwen in his movie The Lord of the Rings in expanding her character. I don’t think Tolkien would have approved of that change. But movies will always contain alterations from books. Some of them are necessary for adaptation, but others may be made to sell more tickets.

@thef-maria But the "kiss the princess" thing when they barely even met had me eye rolling.

Yes, that bit of VDT was a bit appalling, but I suppose Walden felt it had to appeal to an adolescent audience. As for "Suspian", I've been a teenaged Susan in a way, a long time ago, that is to say, when I was a teenager. By now, I'm so old the rest of you might call me Granny. As I've been pointing out, Susan is just "The-girl-in-the-street", for the 1950's, when expectations for your average teenaged schoolgirl were somewhat different than they are today. By the way, "Married at first sight" programs aren't my cup of tea, either. 

Rillian’s character arc is way more engaging and compelling than the character Ramandu’s daughter could ever be. His story always fascinates me

But Rilian was kidnapped & held prisoner by LotGK. That is what people are now saying is "coercive control", responsible for many tragedies one reads about in the paper, when one partner dominates the other too much, not respecting the partner's other commitments in life, or their very right to live & be themselves. Another form of bullying, in fact. Rilian under LotGK's spell was unable to remember where he came from or who he really was. He was like an old man hankering wistfully after "the one that got away", perhaps a girl he only knew for brief moments, knew little about, and whose association with him was terminated by unfortunate family objections to her. 

@coracle If readers want a teenage romance, the Narnia stories are the wrong place to look for it.  

Quite so. In fact, in each book there are personal problems for each visiting child to face & resolve. And that is just the point of Aravis, in particular, when in real life, underaged schoolgirls being forced into arranged marriages can still a very real problem for girls not ready for marriage & is something the Government really has to deal with, or at least where I live. 

@waggawerewolf27 Rillian's character arc actually contains enough dark and some mature themes which along with Aravis' situation, brings me to the argument many use in Lilliandil's appearance "Its a story made for kids!" We notice differently in many cases and Lewis himself has once stated that if a children's story isn't enjoyed by adults too then it isn't a good children's story. I think he succeeded that in many cases and especially with Rillian. I am 21 and still am enjoying Narnia but as I've said if Lewis wanted to keep it as kid friendly as possible but also enjoyable for adults I'd rather not have Ramandu's Daughter at all, or a simple mention of Rillian's mother. My main problem which I failed to state was the idolized barbie doll role she has that only exists for admiration. 

@thef-maria I didn't read it until I was 18, and  loved it.  I could see it as a children's book, but enjoyed it as someone who also read more adult books - I was about to do my final year in English Literature at University - so the romances I read were  by Jane Austen etc.in the 1970s there fewer teenage romance films. I knew of situations in history where a romance had to wait for the right time. 

Have you read any of Lewis's adult books? 

@coracle No I haven't personally I started with the movies when I was 8 and instantly fell in love. Then I went to the audiobooks since it was hard to find all books in order in my language. 

Posted by: @thef-maria

I am 21 and still am enjoying Narnia but as I've said if Lewis wanted to keep it as kid friendly as possible but also enjoyable for adults I'd rather not have Ramandu's Daughter at all, or a simple mention of Rillian's mother. My main problem which I failed to state was the idolized barbie doll role she has that only exists for admiration. 

I also find it sad that Ramandu's daughter is presented as not much more than a trope, as I said before — a beautiful woman who isn't given any real role other than a love interest for Caspian, and she's never fleshed out as a character at all before her tragic death that then leads to Rilian's disappearance.

But honestly, other than that slight disappointment, I can't see why the lack of detail about her is a major problem with the series. Now if ALL the female characters in the series were so sketchily drawn and played virtually no role in the actual action of the stories, there would be something valid to complain about. (That is one of the very few serious drawbacks to Tolkien's writings, but even that doesn't seriously put me off his works as a female fan.)

As it is, though, I just don't let the lack of detail about Ramandu's daughter bother me, and I don't quite understand why any other readers should find it so upsetting that they can't get over it. I'm happy enough to imagine that "in universe", of course she did have a name and a history and a significant identity and individuality and a full and worthwhile life before her untimely death, even though Lewis didn't tell us about any of these things. (We do of course know that she went to Aslan's country after her death, because she's there at the end of The Last Battle, along with Caspian, though still only identified as "the Star's daughter".)

And in the meantime, Lewis created many other female characters whom we get to know much better and who play absolutely vital roles in the stories (and who are not defined solely or even primarily by their marriage to a male character). So with Ramandu's daughter as an exception rather than the rule for how Lewis deals with female characters, I honestly don't see her as a problem. 

@courtenay Lewis is a great writer but everyone may create under developed characters once in a while. I do too but I don't really want them in big involvement with my main characters especially as love interests or I give extra context when needed. I suppose I have big expectations from someone who has indeed written good, flawed and interesting characters and my main disappointment was as I stated that I wanted  good and compelling story for Caspian to fill his good character arc. I mean there are characters that indeed dot play major role anyway but for the partner of a great written character you'd expect a bit more.

I first saw the movie and kind of liked Susan x Caspian then saw the Dawn Trader and honestly didn't like Lilliandil's introduction at all. After thatI kind of had a big crush on Caspian (lol) and went more into his full story. People kept insisting on platforms "Caspian's true love was Lilliandil!" and saw the audiobooks, the dawn trader and I was like "...really? That's all?".

I think the fact that as a little girl started with Disney films like Tangled and Hunchback of Notre Damme says a lot about what my standards are today and I think it certainly isn't Sleeping Beauty type

@thef-maria 

I'm not sure i would agree Ramandu's Daughter is an 'underdeveloped' character. She may only appear briefly, but from that I think we can infer quite a bit about her. She can see she is gracious and hospitable and is poised and confident in dealing with people she doesn't know. And from the way she reacts to Edmund's suggestion that she might be a witch who is enchanting them, we can also tell she isn't easily offended or disconcerted. 

That's not a lot of course, but enough to tell us she might make a good queen for Caspian. 

And that's really all we need to know about her. I really don't see why we need to know more details about her just because she married one of the major characters of the books and was the mother of another. 

@hermit A character of three pages actually is objectively barely a character and when you see that she has no name you clearly see that she wasn't supposed to play an important role. She is more of a plot tool, the motif for Rillian's decisions and character arc and that's fine by me but for people to act like she's the "one" for Caspian, has me eye roll.

Posted by: @hermit

She is poised and confident in dealing with people she doesn't know.

Cool, I mean that's literally all she does her whole life, she grew in this island and welcomed visitors.

Posted by: @hermit

And from the way she reacts to Edmund's suggestion that she might be a witch who is enchanting them, we can also tell she isn't easily offended or disconcerted. 

I think it comes from the fact that she witnessed telmarines and travelers getting mad and comes to expect that any traveller who reaches this far has gone through struggles and of course they wouldn't trust anyone.

Posted by: @hermit

That's not a lot of course, but enough to tell us she might make a good queen for Caspian. 

Uhhh. no because Caspian has two books focusing on him and Lilliandil has three pages long.

Susan literally had more screen time with Caspian in the second movie than the time Caspian had with Ramandu's Daughter. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't 100% ship Suspian. Now the tdoesn't mean that I hate every minor character. But when this minor character is involved with a major, very important character that has an entire book focused on them btw, yes it bothers me. Some people I guess like that kind of love but in my own eyes there IS love at first sight but NOT commitment at first sight. In a very good book series that indeed allows their characters to grow and learn to have some major and very nicely written character like Caspian, who has grown, ached, fought, grew and ruled to just give him a nameless idol from a random island who "ohh she's pretty, she's perfect... that's it!" isn't my thing. If anyone wants a good couple in Narnia Aravis x Cor is a much better choice imo. To me a good written character like Caspian deserves a flawed, developed character that at east gets a name and that is also flawed. Lilliandil isn't flawed at all, she is merely admired just for her looks and more of a symbol than a character. Her introduction felt like going to a fancy expensive restaurant and you eat a bon fillet, the waiters renew your wine every minute, they have live music, crystal chandeliers and when it comes for the dessert they suddenly tell you "Sorry... we're out of pasta, we'll give you a candy bar from Walmart". That's how it felt to me. 

Hmm, reading through the comments, I wonder if expectation makes a difference. When The Voyage of the Dawn Treader was read to me as a child, I was not expecting or hoping for a romance. The 'romance' between Caspian and the Star's Daughter didn't impress me much, but neither did it bother me as it was a detail Lewis chose not to really delve into much at all.

I remember later seeing the BBC adaption of Voyage of the Dawn Treader (and honestly, it made me laugh when the Star's daughter responds to Caspian's reference to Sleeping Beauty, as it came across to me as if her response was hinting something like "Down boy! That is way too enthusiastic and creepy!" The romance was almost non-existent in that adaption as it was in the books.

The Susan-Caspian romance bothered me in Waldon's Prince Caspian because it was such a big change from the book of the same name. This was not an element of the book and it felt unnaturally shoe horned into the movie - and I still question what it contributed to the narrative. I did not like Waldon's portrayal of Caspian's and the Star's Daughter's romance (as they overemphasized how attractive Caspian found her to the point of being sleezy in my eyes). But it was not the worse thing about that adaption.

If my first introduction to Caspian had been the Waldon movies, I probably too would be puzzled why so many people were upset with Caspian-Susan while giving a pass to the actual 'romance' of the story. I was introduced to Caspian in the books - and in the books, I was given no reason to expect a great romance and hence did not feel disappointed when I received none.

@davidd I am not 100% fan of Caspian's and Susan's relationship but as I've said many times for me personally is a comfort zone knowing that at the very least Caspian had experienced some chemistry.

The Sleeping beauty bothered me as well because... HE HAD JUST MET HER! It had me eye rolling.